Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2007-06-20 07:10:29

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Jinashi vs. Jiari

Hello everybody,

I've been thinking a lot lately about Jiari and Jinashi flutes and I wanted to ask what's the rationale behind the perception that Jinashi are better for Zen practice than Jiari.

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would something physical (like if there is ji or not) affect the person's quest for enlightment?

One of the reasons Iíve heard is that because is more natural itís closer to the spirit of bamboo. But the only truly 100% natural full-spirited bamboo should be the one that still grows from the land. Once you take it from the ground and dig holes into it it ceases to be completely ďnaturalĒ as someone has modified it, no?; and being modified whatís the difference between being little or more modified? Iíve heard of this monk who reached enlightment after listening to the wind blowing through a bamboo forest. So were reaching enlightment related to the ďnaturalnessĒ of the process maybe it's better to be a gardener, have a piece of land with a small bamboo forest and wait for the wind to blow through it while doing Zazen!

I heard Watazumi encouraged the use of Jinashi, but I also heard he used very bad flutes and very little people seem to go for bad flutes on purpose to follow his advice. Maybe it's because Jinashi force you to train your breath in a different and more demanding manner, but again bad flutes would be better for this. 

Watazumi encouraged people to find their own way (as opposed to the Watazumi way which is his) and find their own breath; maybe Jinsahi are the best way to train your breath and hence the best way to find your own breath. But if it's about your "own" way and breath, why would Watazumi's way have anything to do with yours? Maybe someones's unique breath is easier to train through the responsiveness of a Jiari.

I know the tone colour and the way of playing are different on Jinashi (different blowing, easier meris, more difficulty of getting a consistent note) but I donít think this has anything to do with Zen or enlightment, or is there a magic combination of sounds that when played with the right volume, right lengths, right colour are going to bring satori to the person? Isnít it about a state of mind? And if thatís the case, whatís the relationship between something as metaphysical as the spirit or the state of mind of the player and the kind of instrument s/he plays?

Well, theses are just my reflections. Please consider I have only played a Jinashi flute once and hence my only knowledge about their particularities comes from what Iíve read. But in my opinion, there should be no relationship between how worked out is the bore and how good is your Zen practice. I understand some people find it easier to get into a ďZen state of mindĒ when they relate in a closer way to a particular instrument (for whichever reason, although being attached to something goes against Budhist practice Ė someone please correct me if Iím wrong!), but from that to being almost a rule, I think itís a bit nonsense.

Salud!

Alex

Alex


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

Offline

 

#2 2007-06-20 07:22:29

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

I am Horst and I am Zen Master. Thus Horst Xenmeister. Both jiari ana jinshi are not Zen. I play cast bore. Cast bore is Zen. End of history.


i am horst

Offline

 

#3 2007-06-20 07:29:31

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

I guess there's some truth in what they say:

"The German sense of humour is no laughing matter".

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

Offline

 

#4 2007-06-20 07:39:50

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Carl Abbott makes an interesting point in his book, Blowing Zen. The book contains instructions for making a plastic shakuhachi that is about as simple as it gets and costs just a few bucks in materials. He argues that in a sense bamboo was the plastic of the time when shakuhachi was born. If you wanted to make something cheap and simple, bamboo was the only answer. They didn't make shakuhachi out of bamboo because it was somehow the best possible material or because they wanted to be fancy. Instead, it was the most accessible material that already worked nicely as a flute because the bore was mostly hollow to begin with.

Although today we tend to think of bamboo as the best and most expensive material for a good shakuhachi, that's not really how it got started. If you would have a time machine and could take something like the plastic Yuu to the early days of shakuhachi, I'm sure that most people would consider it to be very complicated and refined instrument in comparison to the bamboo model that is made out of stuff that grows everywhere.

Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about the style of the particular flute used in Zen context. Having the flute with the most "Zen spirit" in it is nice and all but it distracts one from the actual point of the exercise. It is similar to buying the largest cross necklace you can find as a Christian or buying the most expensive prayer beads as a Buddhist. Both are no doubt nice items in their own right but do very little to further the spiritual pursuit.

I know, it's not the answer you were looking for. Still, I think it's something to keep in mind.

Offline

 

#5 2007-06-20 07:56:48

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Harry wrote:

I guess there's some truth in what they say:

"The German sense of humour is no laughing matter".

Regards,

Harry.

Ja, nor is Irish sense of jumour matter to laugh. Jane Joyce very funny NOT! Boring. Hermann Hesse funny!


i am horst

Offline

 

#6 2007-06-20 07:58:09

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

amokrun wrote:

Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about the style of the particular flute used in Zen context. Having the flute with the most "Zen spirit" in it is nice and all but it distracts one from the actual point of the exercise. It is similar to buying the largest cross necklace you can find as a Christian or buying the most expensive prayer beads as a Buddhist. Both are no doubt nice items in their own right but do very little to further the spiritual pursuit.

I know, it's not the answer you were looking for. Still, I think it's something to keep in mind.

Well, it certainly is great part of the answer!

I also think we sometimes spend a lot of time on the distractions and loose a bit of focus on the actual practice (I guess it's a bit like that tale of the warrior being pierced by an arrow and demanding to find the name of the archer before giving permission to remove the arrow).

And very interesting the reflection about Bamboo being the plastic of the time! Of course, it's after all the most common material around Japan!

Thanks!


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

Offline

 

#7 2007-06-20 08:03:12

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Jesus Christ someone finally asks a serious question and you guys turn it into a yukfest! sad


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#8 2007-06-20 08:12:22

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Hi Alex,

I'm not sure if anybody says jinashi is inherently more zen than jiari. A lot of the people who are honkyoku fundamentalists, such as the Myoan players who don't play gaikyoku, like to play jinashi flutes. They just don't need jiari flutes to play loud in public and to get in tune with koto and shamisen.

Some of the characteristics of jinashi shakuhachi may be perceived by most as closer to nature. Quieter volume, less focused tone, more complex wave form, bigger noise to signal ratio, etc. I don't know if more natural equates with zen but maybe some people equate that.

I prefer jinashi flutes in most cases whether I am playing zen music or other music. I just like the sound and feel. But as our German troll roll er.....member, says, even cast bore or plastic flutes can play the Zen repertoire.

Some of your reasoning could be extended further to say, "What is it about the shakuhachi that is more zen than other instruments?" Obviously the fact that Zen monks developed the repertoire and therefore the instrument, but is that fundamental or is it just an association?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#9 2007-06-20 08:27:22

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Ignoring the way the shakuhachi was made for a moment, my preference for a meditation shakuhachi would be one that is so dreadfully hard to play that you need to maintain focus at all times. You know that you've lost your concentration as soon as the sound breaks even for a moment. It would be like a teacher who taps you with a stick as soon as it looks like you are falling asleep. Only this time the feedback is more direct.

My teacher was a student of Yamaguchi Goro and thus spent a considerable amount of time with him. He told me that Yamaguchi-sensei used to play an instrument that was very difficult to play. It had all sorts of problems that you had to take into account to play it well. Yet, if you listen to his recordings you will notice that there is hardly any evidence of this in his playing. This sort of playing on a difficult instrument no doubt requires extreme concentration. It has to come naturally before one can truly get the full potential out of such an instrument.

As for the usage of ji, personally I would go for the type of sound that one feels comfortable with. I find it hard to believe that someone could play well on an instrument that makes a sound that they don't like. I prefer jinashi but I don't think that gets me closer to anything really.

Offline

 

#10 2007-06-20 09:12:54

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Alex,
Great question, one likely to bring many different answers, none actually answering the question.
For me, I have played a 1.8 jiari flute for about the past 15 years - not because I thought jiari was better or anything like that. I played it because it was all I had, for the longest time it was all I could afford. For the vast majority of the time I have been playing shakuhachi I have not had a teacher (I began with a teacher and just when I was starting to get the hang of things we had become separated), so because I had no teacher and was losing everything I had learned I could not justify buying another shakuhachi. The only piece I could remember to play was Kyorei and this became my zen practice. Kyorei, a 1.8 jiari, me, and breathing in and out - that's all.
To my understanding ichi-on-jobutsu (one sound - enlightenment) does not say "one sound from a 2.6 jinashi shakuhachi made from madake bamboo, played by a person who has memorized at least 18 honkyoku and is playing in a zen temple atop a hill in the spingtime, while wearing the outfit of a komuso including a tengai - enlightenment." It is simply, one sound can lead anyone to enlightenment. What that sound is does not matter, it could be Fuke's bell, it could be the sound of one hand clapping, it could be RO played on ajiari shakuhachi.
The important thing to remember is Practice. Zen is not the flute, or the bell, or the chant, or any other THING - Zen is practice. The goal, as far as I understand it, is to practice enough that the shakuhachi (whatever kind), the honkyoku (music), and the player are comfortable enough together and the player knows the others so well that thought is no longer needed to play. The body knows how to play Kyorei, knows how to breathe into the shakuhachi - then the mind can be open and receptive to enlightenment.
Sure a jinashi shakuhachi has a different, more natural, raw sound than a jiari, but both make sound, both take breath, both take practice.
Breathe in..... breathe out tsu..... breathe in..... breathe out tsu re.......

But what do I know? I am not an buddha and I am not an accomplished shakuhachi master... nor will I likely ever be one.
Peace,
Damon

Last edited by nomaD43 (2007-06-20 09:17:44)

Offline

 

#11 2007-06-20 09:34:42

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

I think that the truth of shakuhachi is primarily subjective, rooted in breath, and that, on a more surface level, the type of flute we use just conforms with certain ideas we have based in our own cultural or spiritual affinities.

I started with a Michael Kanner jinashi flute in July of 1974.  By November of that year, I moved on to a Levenson jiari "California shakuhachi" of the period.  Then, I started making and playing my own hochikus after that.  In 1998, I got one of Monty's 2.4 jiari master models.  Since then, I've made one more flute from a piece of 'boo he supplied me - a 2.9 straight-holed jinashi that is to-die-for.

Through all of these transitions, Zen has always remained Zen.  Tomorrow I'm expecting a Yuu (!) in the mail.  I'm stoked about it, and I'm sure that same ol' Zen will be lingering in the infinite cavern within.

Offline

 

#12 2007-06-20 10:56:22

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Alex wrote:

I've been thinking a lot lately about Jiari and Jinashi flutes and I wanted to ask what's the rationale behind the perception that Jinashi are better for Zen practice than Jiari.

Good question Alex. I participated in this same discussion last night at my favorite watering hole. The topic:  Who plays REAL baseball? The National League or the American League? It was lively! Sadly, I don't think any minds where changed.

Ken

Offline

 

#13 2007-06-20 12:50:01

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Alex wrote:

I wanted to ask what's the rationale behind the perception that Jinashi are better for Zen practice than Jiari.

Alex, there is smart speculation in the responses you're getting, but nobody responding so far seems to actually hold the perception you're asking about.  Have you read about or met some people that do?

(Maybe those people are hiding, now that the laser of rational inquiry is on them!  Or maybe those people are playing jinashi and sitting zazen so much that they have no time for the internet...)

Because a Zen practitioner does X a lot doesn't mean they're claiming or perceiving that X is better for Zen practice than not-X.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

Offline

 

#14 2007-06-20 13:38:58

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

Jesus Christ someone finally asks a serious question and you guys turn it into a yukfest! sad

smile

Brian, do you know if most of the flutes Jin Nyodo used (or recorded with in those living room tapes) were jiari. I thought they were.

I would be cautious about accepting the view that Watazumi's flutes were "bad".

The timbre of the old Fukť type of flutes that Watazumi and Uramoto used was pretty unusual by modern standards. Thick-walled, wide bore, raw. Sounds like a very large man with a high pitch voice singing (!) Conversely rich and fragile.

I would also be cautious about romanticizing playing shakuhachi as a formal part of zen practice, or trying to revive such. Word is that if you were a monk attached to one of these temples and got caught playing "unofficial" music that your ears or nose were in jeopardy of being separated from your head.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." óRowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#15 2007-06-20 14:17:36

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Hello everybody,

I'm glad the question raised some interesting issues. These were things that were occpuying my mind for a while and it's great to have a place like this to share them. smile

Tairaku wrote:

Some of your reasoning could be extended further to say, "What is it about the shakuhachi that is more zen than other instruments?" Obviously the fact that Zen monks developed the repertoire and therefore the instrument, but is that fundamental or is it just an association?

Brian, I think this is a good point. Exactly, what makes Shakuhachi so Zen besides the tradition? Could we have a Zen practice with a Sax or a guitar or a set of congas?  I guess being breathing involved in meditation it would make sense that it is a wind instrument, but if it's about being focused and developing a sense of ma, then any instrument could do (I find the electric guitar fully distorted to be somehow similar to Shakuhachi, or was not Jimi Hendrix an enlightned person?! wink).

As Damon mentions, Zen is about the practice, I guess the vehicle is not to important (although it's always easier to hold on to a tradition to at least have the feeling that you are following a path with a lesser degree of personal doubt and uncertainty).

Amokrun, what you say about Yamaguchi Goro playing a very hard instrument is amazing. Hearing him I had imagine he had a really nice melloy, easy-playing flute! It certainly increases my, already high, repect and admiration for him.

Harazda, I couldn't agree more that the experience of Shakuhachi is subjective. That was what I was reffering to when talking about your own way (as opposed to the Watazumi way for example). What works and gets something going for someone may cause no reaction on another.

Darren, I'm also begginng to think that it's my missundertanding, but thinking about it I do have read comments around that at least seem to imply that, hence the question to see if someone could actually give me some arguments (historical, physical, spiritual) that could support that point of view. I don't know maybe my missinderstanding (most probably), maybe they are hiding as you say!

Chris, I could be wrong but I've been listining to Jin Nyodo lately and to me it sounds like Jinashi, but I'm not an expert so don't quote me on this!

Ken, so who plays REAL baseball?!


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

Offline

 

#16 2007-06-20 17:48:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Chris Moran wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Jesus Christ someone finally asks a serious question and you guys turn it into a yukfest! sad

smile

Brian, do you know if most of the flutes Jin Nyodo used (or recorded with in those living room tapes) were jiari. I thought they were.

I would be cautious about accepting the view that Watazumi's flutes were "bad".

Jin Nyodo was a student of Miura Kindo so he probably used a Miura Kindo 1.8, that would be jiari. There are a lot of flutes around with Jin Nyodo's stamp on them but he didn't actually make those, he just stamped them. The flutes he actually made were jinashi. On the CD's sounds like jinashi to me especially as the flutes get longer. So the answer is he played and was associated with both kinds.

Watazumi played a lot of good flutes. He liked to brag about playing pieces of bamboo he found on the road or laundry poles but he also played really good long jinashi made by Okubo Kodo and nice Edo flutes.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#17 2007-06-20 19:48:05

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Okay then, I'll address the issue perhaps more directly. 

The jinashi flute is, to use a term Chris Moran used, RAW.  It's wild, with an untamed sense.  In the liner notes to one of Watazumi's albums there was mention of a flute that was used that was so raw and so new that dust was blowing out the holes when he performed the piece.  I may be mistaken, but that may have been Dai Bosatsu, which he performed on The Mystical Resonance of Bamboo (The Mysterious Sound of the Japanese Bamboo Flute).  The flute cracked and failed the Master, and he had to end the piece prematurely.  Regardless of this fact, that remains my favorite piece by Watazumi. 

I think that there is a rugged wabi-sabi quality that is one of the things that defines a true sense of Zen to many people.  It's natural.  Unrefined.  Uncomplicated.  Effective on its own terms, without much artifice.  The jinashi flute just has that special quality.

Another way I think of it is city-style vs. country-style.  The slick, polished jiari flute has a citified presence, and I think Watazumi used a term which translates as "vulgar" to describe its sound.  He wanted that sound that was like the sound of nature, perhaps like the silent sound of heavy snow in a remote mountain forest.  The jinashi flute just delivers that kind of feeling better.

There ya go!  Is that something like what you were looking for?

ps: You can always bring the country to the city... if you want to.

Last edited by Harazda (2007-06-20 19:49:20)

Offline

 

#18 2007-06-20 20:18:07

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

Watazumi played a lot of good flutes. He liked to brag about playing pieces of bamboo he found on the road or laundry poles but he also played really good long jinashi made by Okubo Kodo and nice Edo flutes.

My first lessons a couple of years ago were with Yoshizawa Masakazu and when I would complain about the tuning of my old Meian (Myoan) flute he would repeat the Watazumi playing a laundry pole story.

And I would ask, incredulously, "In tune?" and he would exclaim back to me, "In TUNE!"


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." óRowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#19 2007-06-20 21:20:06

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Back to the original post of Alex.


Well I am sorry if I will come a bit hard on you but I feel that you are asking questions that are quite useless based on lore and myths generated by people in general.

Ok so here is my rant.

As far as I am concerned Jinashi flutes in general are pieces of crap. The whole reason why Jiari came up was to make better flutes. But then again what is a good flute? A flute that is easy to play and is well balanced or one that is so hard to play and that is old and that we venerate because it is so?

Now I am not saying that Jinashi are not good. Just that is hard to find a Jinashi that will be as easy to play and balanced as a Jiari. So this is why I would recommend playing a good Jiari and if you get the chance to find some good Jinashi then go for it. But remember this comes with a price!

Now back to that Zen thing. Who the heck claims that Jinashi is better to play Suizen? #1 do they know what Suizen is or for that matter what Zen is? The whole Jinashi VS Jiari for playing Suizen is quite idiotic. Just get a GOOD flute and ad a teacher to get you trough the ropes then PLAY!  Zen is Zen and Shakuhachi is Shakuhachi and when it comes to finding a teacher that claims to teach Suizen please find me one I would like to meet one! That thing called Suizen does not exist as a package in itself as what so many are seeking. Suizen just means you are using the Shakuhachi as a tool to play more than just music. So in this way it means that most likely those students of Shakuhachi learning this flute for spiritual purpose will tend to learn Zen and Buddhism and even some Taoism in order to strengthen their mental will and depth and insight when playing.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

Offline

 

#20 2007-06-20 23:57:28

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Alex wrote:

Ken, so who plays REAL baseball?!

Gishin wrote:

The whole reason why Jiari came up was to make better flutes. But then again what is a good flute? A flute that is easy to play and is well balanced or one that is so hard to play and that is old and that we venerate because it is so?

The whole reason why the American League came about was to make baseball more accessible to the average fan. More home runs, more scoring, more "excitement." But then, what is real baseball? Baseball that is easy to watch, or like the National League, baseball that is expressed through subtle strategy, requiring a keen knowledge of history to fully appreciate?

Ken

Offline

 

#21 2007-06-21 00:28:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

As far as I am concerned Jinashi flutes in general are pieces of crap. The whole reason why Jiari came up was to make better flutes. But then again what is a good flute? A flute that is easy to play and is well balanced or one that is so hard to play and that is old and that we venerate because it is so?

Actually jiari flutes were developed when the komuso were abolished. Shakuhachi players could no longer make a living busking with honkyoku. So they started to seek out gigs with the sankyoku trio. They developed jiari flutes for volume and to make more pieces of bamboo play in tune. This is also the reason for 2 piece flutes. Suppose a piece of bamboo is 1.9 in length. The maker wants to make a 1.8 so he cuts out .1. It's easier to make than a nobe flute.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#22 2007-06-21 00:35:57

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Threads like this one (what is the better zen practice/instrument/etc) reminds me of two men that are lost in the middle of the desert looking for the ocean. The two men meet and the newly lost man seeing the other darker, more tanned man if he can point him to the ocean? The tanned man, says that it is not the way he came.

To ask someone who is seeking enlightenment, how you attain enlightenment will only bring you both further from the point you seek. If we want to know if there is a "ZEN" difference between jinashi and jiari, or suizen and zazen, or the ascetic way or the middle way, then we must ask an elightened man who has found the WAY through shakuhachi.

And when we have his answer, then we must find our own WAY.

Breathe in... breathe out tsu.... breathe in.... breathe out tsu re....

Offline

 

#23 2007-06-21 01:14:49

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

There are a lot of flutes around with Jin Nyodo's stamp on them but he didn't actually make those, he just stamped them.

Sounds like a rock star kind of thing.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." óRowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#24 2007-06-21 02:34:27

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

Gishin wrote:

As far as I am concerned Jinashi flutes in general are pieces of crap. The whole reason why Jiari came up was to make better flutes. But then again what is a good flute? A flute that is easy to play and is well balanced or one that is so hard to play and that is old and that we venerate because it is so?

Actually jiari flutes were developed when the komuso were abolished. Shakuhachi players could no longer make a living busking with honkyoku. So they started to seek out gigs with the sankyoku trio. They developed jiari flutes for volume and to make more pieces of bamboo play in tune. This is also the reason for 2 piece flutes. Suppose a piece of bamboo is 1.9 in length. The maker wants to make a 1.8 so he cuts out .1. It's easier to make than a nobe flute.

Quite Interesting it was never explained or presented to me this way other than Jiari were made to play better and more in tone also making it perfect to play Sankyoku since now more people were playing Shakuhachi during Meiji. So Meiji restoration was in 1868/1877 until all was finalized so this would mean there was no Jiari or concept of it before that? I would  not go as far as to say that i was exactly because the Komuso were disbanded that they went at it to make better flutes to play with the Shamisen and Koto gals. I am sure it has some involvment to some extant but as I see it the Jiari thing would just be the Japanese being Japanese just like in sword making always trying to improve their products since after Meiji Shakuhachi would be a musical instrument like any other made by craftsmen who had names/shops to keep and a product quality to improve inorder to say their products are the best meaning easy to play in tone etc... But you would have to aggree that a Jiari is more easy to play than a Jinashi in General.

Now for the length thing I am not sure I quite get it. Are you saying that prior to Jiari flutes were longer? Just wanted to make sure on that one since it could also very well be that in general they were at 1.8 but 1.9 could have been quite common as well in the old flutes.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

Offline

 

#25 2007-06-21 03:44:44

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

But you would have to aggree that a Jiari is more easy to play than a Jinashi in General.

Gishin, maybe I'm an exception but I don't agree.  I would expect this to depend on one's experience, what type of flute a player was "raised" on, and what aspects of playing are most desired.  My experience, playing exclusively wide-bore jinashi for my first two years, is that jinashi flutes are easier to play, even compared to a very good jiari flute as I've been practicing with lately.

Maybe eventually jiari's ease will reveal itself to me.  I do enjoy playing jiari.  But for now, everything from stable embouchure, sustaining very long tones, expression/dynamics within a tone's duration, starting cleanly, golden decay, etc. is easier for me on jinashi.

-Darren.

Last edited by dstone (2007-06-21 03:45:59)


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google