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#1 2007-07-08 08:57:44

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Okay, here's what I'm wondering about: the word used for these big flutes.  Understanding, of course, that they are what they are - prior to language - nonetheless I'm a bit puzzled why there are three dominant ways of transliterating this word.  Isn't there really and truly a correct standardized way of doing it? 

I look at the three main ways of doing it and, personally, I don't like any of them.  Why double the "c"?  When I first encountered the word 33 years ago, I liked the "hot" part of "hotchiku," but I've never liked the way "tch" go together.  And "hochiku" seems a little insubstantial, but would be my leading choice.  Last night I composed a little poem, and it spontaneously came out a little different... in a way that I like:

HOCHIKKU-DO

The way of Hochikku -
Vast horizons
In heart of thunder!
- An ancient light
Destroying illusion
Through the vehicle
Of bamboo.

Here, I removed the "t" and doubled the "k."  The "hikku" appears as the "hikku" in the word "bhikku," and I think it looks pretty good.  If there is no standardized way, why don't we pick one that looks good?  If we're free to do so, and y'all aren't interested... well... I think I'm still going to do it.  Hochikku...

I don't know; perhaps I'll change my mind...

And then there are the other alternatives: long shakuhachi, long jinashi shakuhachi, long jinashi nobekan shakuhachi, chokan jinashi shakuhachi... kyotaku (which seems to be a more exacting term)...

What a dilemma!

Ha ha!

Last edited by Harazda (2007-07-08 08:58:47)

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#2 2007-07-08 12:06:04

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Hochiku is written as 法竹. First kanji, 法, is typically read as ほう or "hou" with a long "o" tone. I believe different systems use different letters to indicate this. The second kanji, 竹, is read as ちく and typically translated to "chiku". The whole word would thus be ほうちく. Since Japanese is written using its own system, there is no right answer to what the proper way to write it would be. Personally I prefer "hochiku" or perhaps the more accurate but harder to write version hōchiku. Either way you are just trying to create an approximation of the word in another language.

I hope that helps. For the record, I have little knowledge of language theory as such.

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#3 2007-07-08 12:28:49

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Hello Chris-
It is actually quite simple why there are various ways of writing Hotchiku in Romaji (translating Japanese into Roman characters). First, there is no absolute rule as the Japanese really do not use Romaji but instead use their native(and Chinese influenced) writing systems of Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana. Over the years, though, there have been a couple of different Romaji systems that have developed. One of the more popular systems is the modified Hepburn system. In this system the letter "t" is used to repeat the consonant "chi" as in "chiku". But, this is the kind of tricky part, the "chi" is actually not really a "c" character but in fact part of the "t" family. As in, TA CHI TSU TE TO. As you can see they just change the "t" to "c" in the CHI-character because that is how they pronounce it.

The "HO" in Hotchiku is actually the same KANJI (Chinese character) used in Houki or Hoki. This word defines as Religious tool. The "chiku" in Hotchiku simply means bamboo. --So you really wouldn't want to change "chiku" to "chikku" as this word does not mean bamboo anymore. So, to distinguish any old religious tool to mean the religious tool of bamboo "chiku" was added to "Ho". Thus forming Hotchiku or Hocchiku. Then when you join "Ho" and "chiku" it creates a double consonant. In the Hepburn system, as previously described, this means to double the "c" you write a "t", as in Hotchiku. In other systems (I do not know the names of these other systems) to double the consonant "c" in "chiku" you use "c" as in Hocchiku.

I believe that these two ways (Hotchiku and Hocchiku) are the correct ways (not correct as in others are wrong, but as in this is the correct rules of Japanese to Romaji). But, I think that just others in America(or elsewhere) just changed "Hocchiku/Hotchiku" to "Hochiku" as they did not know the correct Japanese/Romaji systems.

This is what I have found out. I hope this helps of why there are various ways of spelling Hotchiku, Hocchiku or Hochiku. If there are others that know of any other reasons for the different spellings I would also like to know.
-Prem


Addendum: I just read Amokrun's post as I posted mine and I believe the only difference in what I have discovered is that when you join "Hoo" (long "o") and "chiku", for some reason or another, it creates a double consonant. Perhaps a person more educated on Japanese language could elaborate.

Last edited by -Prem (2007-07-08 12:35:08)

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#4 2007-07-08 13:43:54

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Okay!  Thanks, -Prem, and amokrun, for your responses.  It sure pays to check with those who KNOW.  There's no way I would want to employ incorrect usage.  While involved with Tibetan language to some degree, I've discovered that it also employs different and somewhat confusing transliteration systems. 

Now... between Hotchiku and Hocchiku... I suppose it makes some sense to use either one depending on who one is communicating with.

Having been hanging out with Watazumi's famous World Pacific LP for so many years, that's the one that, to me, seems the more comfortable of the two.  The clincher for me is what you said, -Prem, about the fact that that pronunciation comes under the heading of "t" sounds.  I guess it's going to be "hotchiku" as far as I'm concerned, unless someone can absolutely convince me otherwise.

Thanks again!
Chris Harazda


The poem, reworked:


HOTCHIKU-DO

The way of hotchiku -
Vast horizons
In heart of thunder!
- An ancient light
Destroying illusion
Through the vehicle
Of bamboo.

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#5 2007-07-08 15:28:47

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Harazda wrote:

Having been hanging out with Watazumi's famous World Pacific LP for so many years, that's the one that, to me, seems the more comfortable of the two.  The clincher for me is what you said, -Prem, about the fact that that pronunciation comes under the heading of "t" sounds.  I guess it's going to be "hotchiku" as far as I'm concerned, unless someone can absolutely convince me otherwise.

I doubt it matters much which one you use as long as everyone knows what you mean. The only thing I care about is that everyone knows which kanji are being used and thus what the actual meaning behind the word is. There are various cases in Japanese where some syllables sound different in different context. Common example could be the martial art called "kenpo", which often gets written as "kempo" because that's closer to how it actually sounds when someone says it. I often use the simple forms that come directly from the kana used, such as hochiku, since this at least for me makes it easier to figure out the actual word in Japanese. It may not be accurate as far as pronunciation goes but at the very least you don't have to guess which kanji is being talked about. Unless you are singing and just want to sound like you know the words, I find it best to use the system that allows me to more easily figure out the original words.

Oh well. I suppose you could always write out the kanji and put the pronunciation after them for people who can't read Japanese. That should at least keep things clear.

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#6 2007-07-08 16:26:24

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

I personally know virtually nothing about Japanese language and the use of kanji.  While in acupuncture school, I took three semesters of Chinese language and learned how to write in the new Maoist simplified form; naturally, I prefer the age-old Chinese written characters. 

amokrun, I'm glad you're approaching it the way you are.  A good hermeneutical approach is always best.  I think it would behoove me to look into Japanese language a little more deeply.  Thanks for illustrating the kanji for hotchiku; that's probably a really good place for me to start!

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#7 2007-07-08 18:23:30

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

I am not so worried about how it's spelled.

I am more interested in how great the good ones are yet how many of the other ones suck! smile Very small percentage are worth playing.

Chris where did you get yours and how good are they?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2007-07-08 23:22:33

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

I've made all the ones I've ever had, and they certainly have not all been created equal!  There have been a few dogs.  Considering that I knew virtually nothing for so long (and still know little), I guess I'm fortunate to have made some that are playable!  I saw one - on Kinya Sogawa's site?... I'm not sure about that - that said something like, "I made this from studying a picture of Watazumi playing..."  What's hilarious is that I did that same thing, and I came up with what I jokingly call "The Great Formula."  Sure enough, that flute pictured looked like the same setup as mine... only, I like my holes all in a straight row, like the kyotakus.

On my 28th birthday (I'm 53 now) I entered a grove in Tampa and cut a piece of bamboo that had died and cured in the grove, and you could see the summer on one side and the winter on the other, and I took that dried out piece of bamboo and finished the flute that day.  I made that flute because the first one I made, probably in 1979, had been stolen.  So, I was eager to make another, and it turned out real nice.  The only problem I have to this day with that flute is that I over-oiled it, and it's a little too gummy in the bore.  But it still has never cracked.

For my CD "Illuminated From Within" I made five new jinashi flutes, one for each piece I recorded.  Each piece had a feeling or image I wanted to create as music.  The flutes ranged from 52 cm, with a tiny bore, to a full 99.5 cm monster. 

What's cool now is that I've recently visited a fellow near us here in Melbourne who has a huge piece of property with thousands of bamboo... I didn't see what I thought might be madake around, but there would nevertheless be a lot of bamboo there for monster flutes such as we like!  I'm planning to take a saw over there, since I have an invitation to go wild! 

But, to be honest, I really want to move into other peoples' hotchikus... Perry Yung, Kinya Sogawa, Shugetsu, Okuda, Ramos... any of these.  I was real impressed looking at Kinya's hotchikus pictured on his site.  Unless I'm really self-deceived, which is certainly possible, they look similar to mine in their primitiveness.  All mine have natural utaguchis, but I'd really like one with a Kinya-style inset blowing edge.  Just a touch of extra class!

Now all I need is some money!

Anyway, last night I was playing one of my 2.93 hotchikus and had to laugh when I finished playing and thought out loud, "Man, this thing is better than a Cadillac!"  So, my flutes might be dogs to established and more experienced makers and players, but I sure get blown away on them!  I thought "Better than a Cadillac" would be a really funny slogan, and I also think it's true.  Anyone who has a really nice hotchiku has something VERY special... something that is much more valuable than a Cadillac...

Last edited by Harazda (2007-07-08 23:24:20)

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#9 2007-07-08 23:28:47

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

do you have any recording of your stuff? (the cadillac shakuhachi)

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#10 2007-07-09 09:17:34

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Hotchiku, Hocchiku, Hochiku... Hochikku?

Hi geni,

Actually, my CD "Illuminated From Within" has a piece performed on the flute in question.  The piece is called "Samadhi Of The Flowing River," and it's the second piece on the CD.

It's available from shakuhachi.com.

I want to be clear that I'm not claiming that this flute is a Cadillac compared to other peoples' flutes.  It's more likely a Chevrolet!  My statement is that a good hotchiku is existentially superior to a Cadillac, spiritually speaking.  In other words, a Cadillac automobile probably isn't going to do a lot to bring lasting satisfaction in the context of piercing the illusions of samsara.  A good hotchiku, on the other hand, can do much in this regard!

Of course, some Cadillac drivers out there might take issue with this statement!

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