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#1 2007-07-20 20:40:31

Arjay
Member
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: 2007-05-25
Posts: 11

Coloring the wood and a case idea

Hi all,

I had a question that I've yet to find info on, yet. Please excuse me if this has already been brought up on the forums; I may not have searched the right keywords.

I'm working on making a flute - just one - and it was put away last May to begin its year-long wait. Thanks to Jon Kypros for his advice on correctly venting the nodes so it would dry properly and not warp. I greatly appreciate your advice.

In the meantime, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about correct utaguchi cuts, hole placement, tuning and so forth, practicing on whatever scrap I can get my hands on. In the big scheme of things, aesthetics isn't exactly top priority, but it's still good to know how to make a project look one way or the other. That's where my question comes in.

I notice many shakuhachi have this lovely darkness to them, often around the horn and fading to a lighter, more natural tone further up the outside wall. In fact, as of this writing I see an ad at the upper-right of the screen for Mr. Ken LaCosse's flutes, and the image there and on his webpage are fine examples of what I'm talking about.

How is this effect achieved? Is it done with urushi? I had it in my mind to steer clear of urushi as I fear I may be allergic to it. What about dying the bamboo with tea, wood stain or even some delicate burning process? I really like the stain effect like that and would love to have a clearer idea of how this is achieved.

Lastly, I was contemplating making a bamboo case for my little project flute. Even mentioning this feels like I may be getting ahead of myself. There is a place near here where I could conceivably harvest a surprisingly large culm, suitably large enough to make a flute case. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. There are plenty of enormous culms like what I'm talking about in this location, and the rest of the stalk would be handy to have as well. If anyone has an opinion one way or the other about this idea, I'd like to know.

Thanks for reading this rather long post.

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#2 2007-07-20 23:56:45

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Hi Arjay.

One of many recipes for beautiful coloration is suggested to be chicken shit, straw, and a hole in the ground.

I'm nothing but a flute hack myself, but I predict your flute's tuning, balance, and tone color issues are really what's going to make or break it, not what it looks like.  i.e. Even if you impart a great visual look to the bamboo, its sound will be what makes you want to either play it constantly or leave it in the case.  So if you haven't made many flutes, spend most of your time experimenting with sound in bamboo.  Or even PVC -- many lessons translate. 

Great project...  Good luck!

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#3 2007-07-21 01:45:34

Arjay
Member
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: 2007-05-25
Posts: 11

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Oh my. Well, I don't think I'll be burying anything in feces, but I do appreciate the link to that thread. I've been going over it these past few minutes and taking some notes.

Of course, you're right. I should focus more on the mechanics than aesthetics. I suppose it came from my looking around at other people's flutes and thinking, "wow, that looks really nice. I wonder how hard that would be to do?" More of a passing interest at this point, but a curiosity nonetheless. And I do still practice regularly with scrap bamboo, though I haven't yet tried to make a flute from PVC. I'll have to give it a go (or two or three) before I make any attempt on my little project piece.

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#4 2007-07-22 13:31:55

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Arjay wrote:

How is this effect achieved? Is it done with urushi? I had it in my mind to steer clear of urushi as I fear I may be allergic to it. What about dying the bamboo with tea, wood stain or even some delicate burning process? I really like the stain effect like that and would love to have a clearer idea of how this is achieved.

Hi Arjay,

The root area can be stained with thinned urushi. I suppose other stains would work as well. Any stain takes better if the skin is sanded off first. Urushi will still cover the skin, but not penetrate. Other stains won't work as well on the skin.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Ken

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#5 2007-07-22 13:39:40

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Has anybody tried soaking the bamboo in tea?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2007-07-22 13:54:11

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Tairaku wrote:

Has anybody tried soaking the bamboo in tea?

I tried tie-dying a T-shirt with tea once. It looked great until I washed it.

Arjay wrote:

I'm working on making a flute - just one - and it was put away last May to begin its year-long wait. Thanks to Jon Kypros for his advice on correctly venting the nodes so it would dry properly and not warp. I greatly appreciate your advice.

Arjay, are you sure you are using bamboo? I've experimented with cane in the past and had it warp on me when drying but never bamboo. Bamboo used for quality shakuhachi making are usually thick-walled and dense compared to lighter bamboo and cane.

Once you break the skin, you can stain it with any wood stain.

Best of luck, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#7 2007-08-09 12:27:58

Owloon
Member
From: Experimental Farm, Ottawa
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 19
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Walnut dyes many things very nicely, and it is probably the only really lightfast natural dye.  I haven't tried it on bamboo, but it's great on (tree) wood and fabric, not to mention your hands.  Right now the walnuts are just coming due where I am (southern Ontario, Canada).  If you can find some in your area, search on the net for pictures if you need to, just pick some off the tree or off the ground.  If you break open a fresh green hull it will be light green on the inside and then brown with exposure to the air.  I've just rubbed this freshly on maple and it turns it a glowing darker color - keep layering over to darken more and more, although I don't know if you'd get a dark brown - but maybe. 

Incidentally, walnuts are anti-carcinogenic and smell lemony.  Kids playing with the hulls prevents leukaemia, some leaves (at the time of the walnuts being ripe) rubbed on the inside of upper arms prevents breast cancer.  And the colour stained on your skin, some people my recognize the colour and engage you in conversation about walnut harvesting.  smile  The info courtesey of Diana Beresford-Kroeger.

Perry, you could re-dye your shirt by boiling some hulls in a pot, letting it sit for say a few minutes or 24 hours - more hulls and more time means more colour, but it depends on the fabric too.  The colour will be less red than tea.  A little salt in the water helps, but no mortar is needed.  I recently wanted to take the brightness off a bright green shirt and forgot to stir it and it created this lovely tye-dye-ish dappled leaf pattern from some of the fabric being above the water.  Might be better to do it outside or with an open window just 'coz what's healthy in it's original state might break down and become something different when heated and airborn, but I haven't heard anything specifically about walnut.  When you're done, rinse like crazy.

If you put hulls in water like this but make it really dense and thick, it makes an ink, which might be useful for painting some darker colour on the bamboo, but I haven't tried that.

Although I'm not about to try it myself, there are probably ways of getting the colour into oil, maybe by "frying", but obviously, there would be safety considerations.  A project to be done on the driveway I'm sure.

COMPOSTER WARNING: never put walnut hulls in the composter.  You will notice that little grows under walnut trees and it's because the hulls, while healthy to people are unhealthy to plants, and nothing will grow in your garden if it has anything walnut in it.

Also, you can eat the walnuts if you dry them, of course, but I'm trying not to go too far off topic so you can look that up elsewhere.


"Whether you are [playing] in the bar, the church, the strip joint, or the Himalayas, the first duty of music is to compliment and enhance life."   -- Carlos Santana, via _Zen Guitar_ by Philip Toshio Sudo

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#8 2007-08-09 17:38:54

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Wow!  Walnut sounds really amazing.  Who needs Agent Orange with that stuff around?  I wonder how it was used by the Cree, Ojibway, and others?

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#9 2007-08-10 23:22:52

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Hi Owloon,

Owloon wrote:

Perry, you could re-dye your shirt by boiling some hulls in a pot, letting it sit for say a few minutes or 24 hours - more hulls and more time means more colour, but it depends on the fabric too.  The colour will be less red than tea.  A little salt in the water helps, but no mortar is needed.  I recently wanted to take the brightness off a bright green shirt and forgot to stir it and it created this lovely tye-dye-ish dappled leaf pattern from some of the fabric being above the water.  Might be better to do it outside or with an open window just 'coz what's healthy in it's original state might break down and become something different when heated and airborn, but I haven't heard anything specifically about walnut.  When you're done, rinse like crazy.

Thanks for the tip! I no longer have the t-shirt. I tried the dying while on tour in Italy and lost the shirt in Macedonia. But, I'll keep the nut in mind the next time I need to dye something. Is it commercially available as a dye or does one need to brew it.

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#10 2007-08-13 09:57:55

Owloon
Member
From: Experimental Farm, Ottawa
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 19
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Harazada: Diana Beresford-Kroeger grew up being taught traditional Irish Celtic oral knowledge, became a scientist, now lives in Canada (outside Ottawa), has an incredible garden designed to preserve species, and is an author of books, including _Arboretum America_.  She talks much about where trad. Celtic, trad. Native North American and scientific knowledge confirm each other - although her purpose is to talk about the plants more so than the cultures.  (One thing, if I remember correctly, that was done was create hunting grounds under savannas of cultivated nut trees, and tofu was made from the nuts.)  I can't get to my books because they're packed for a move but that's one source of info.  Anyway, I love her books.  She advocates planting trees of specific medical sorts around hospitals just for breathing near them (I'm trying to make a Shakuhachi tie-in here).

Perry: Walnut hull powder available at:

http://www.hillcreekfiberstudio.com/

Or I could send you some myself if I can send plant matter across the border (I'm not sure).

I'm imagining, for colouring a shakuhachi, if maybe ripples of paper wet with walnut ink could create a natural-looking pattern.  Adding metals modifies the colour, like iron makes the walnut black-brown.  Maybe somehow this could be used to create variations in colour that run together or are layered.

More helpful info and how-to variations at:  http://home.onemain.com/~crowland/Pages/Walnut.html

Kim.


"Whether you are [playing] in the bar, the church, the strip joint, or the Himalayas, the first duty of music is to compliment and enhance life."   -- Carlos Santana, via _Zen Guitar_ by Philip Toshio Sudo

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#11 2007-08-14 16:40:44

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Owloon wrote:

Perry: Walnut hull powder available at:

http://www.hillcreekfiberstudio.com/

Or I could send you some myself if I can send plant matter across the border (I'm not sure).

I'm imagining, for colouring a shakuhachi, if maybe ripples of paper wet with walnut ink could create a natural-looking pattern.  Adding metals modifies the colour, like iron makes the walnut black-brown.  Maybe somehow this could be used to create variations in colour that run together or are layered.

More helpful info and how-to variations at:  http://home.onemain.com/~crowland/Pages/Walnut.html

Kim.

Thanks Kim! I'll give you a shout if when I try it. All the best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#12 2007-10-24 04:53:58

badoumba
Member
From: STAVANGER
Registered: 2006-03-03
Posts: 7

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Hi evrybody!

We can find in mejiro store for instance smoked bamboos with already brown color. What is exactly the process to make it?
Is it a way to have quickly dried bamboo instead of waiting several years - for commercial purposes I understand... or a special coat of product after drying process?

I try to have such a color on my shakuhachi but I hesitate to try with this kind of bamboo.

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#13 2007-10-29 13:49:02

david
Member
Registered: 2006-07-25
Posts: 71

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

hEY ALL!
wHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO SAND OFF THE SKIN? I HEARD SOMETHING ABOUT STEEL WOOL?
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'VE SANDED ENOUGH OR GONE TOO FAR?


david
'Listen to the words of no man; listen only to the sounds of the wind and the waves of the sea.,~Claude Debussy

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#14 2007-10-29 14:23:33

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

david wrote:

hEY ALL!
wHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO SAND OFF THE SKIN? I HEARD SOMETHING ABOUT STEEL WOOL?
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'VE SANDED ENOUGH OR GONE TOO FAR?

Hi David,

Sanding "shoeshine" style with long strips of sandpaper works well to remove skin at and around the root end. Use different grades depending on how smooth you want it. You can see the difference when the skin is removed. It doesn't take much. Going too far shouldn't be an issue because it is the same material all the way through to the bore.

Hope this helps.

Ken

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#15 2007-10-30 09:56:35

david
Member
Registered: 2006-07-25
Posts: 71

Re: Coloring the wood and a case idea

Thanks Ken,
I think it will help! I will have to practice on some cut pieces. The problem is knowing when to stop...isn't it? With just about every aspect of making a shakuhachi.


david
'Listen to the words of no man; listen only to the sounds of the wind and the waves of the sea.,~Claude Debussy

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