Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

kenwolman · 2005-12-30 18:30:41

Very hard to ask questions about something so new to me. I will try nevertheless.

After a few days I am able to reliably expect to get a sound from the shaku. A real note, not a hum or even a squawk.

But.

I am not at all sure what note I'm playing, i.e., whether what's coming out is what it is supposed to sound like. Even the master recordings people have sent me--including the Taniguchi examples on the instructional CD--leave me a bit mystified about the range of possibilities based on the column of air blown through the instrument. Depending on how I seem to be focusing the airstream, the note could be a half-tone higher or lower than a "mean" I haven't been able to determine. Do I go by the sweetest-sounding note? That is my inclination: the most steady and gentlest sound appears to be the right one, but then I can't account for why a wider or narrower stream varies the sound and pitch so greatly.

Does any of this make any sense?

Ken

kyoreiflutes · 2005-12-30 22:14:56

It sounds like the first thing that's happening is that you're going back and forth between octaves. Try breathing more gently and see where that gets you. Are you closing all the holes, or leaving them open? Do you have the flute pressed harder to your chin, or relaxed? Have you tried giving the utaguchi (blowing edge) just a little bit bigger or smaller hole than you're using right now, meaning where you place your chin? Are you trying different angles of the flute, keeping in mind to make your chin the pivot point?

It's hard to do this through wirting, isn't it? lol. Sorry I can't be there to help you out. I've taught a few friends of mine how to play, and now most of them can play some little melody.

Most of all, though, it does sound like you're going through the octaves, which happens when you concentrate your emrouchure differently. It's tricky, but just try to get into the first, or lower, octave, and stay there until you get comfy making sounds ONLY on your basic 6 notes. You don't have to play loud, and it's harder for beginners to control the pitch when playing loud. You'll get, in general, a slightly purer sound by playing a little quietly, in that you won't be hopping up to the next octave as much.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and stay with it! It's easy to get frustrated, but just take your time, seriously, and let it come to you when it wants to.

-Eddie
Kyorei Flutes

jumbuk · 2005-12-31 01:04:39

kyoreiflutes wrote:
It sounds like the first thing that's happening is that you're going back and forth between octaves.

To me it sounds like the flat and sharp sounds you get with different angles of blowing - ie kari/meri. I found the same thing - the "unintended meri" notes sounded pretty rough. I found the sweetest tone, then tested it against an electronic tuner to see if I was hitting the right note. If you have access to a tuner or another instrument to play against, this is a good way of doing an objective test.

Last edited by jumbuk (2006-01-02 06:20:36)

kyoreiflutes · 2005-12-31 03:06:43

Yeah, good idea, or just play it with another instrument to get the tuning.

I did mean keri/meri...should've used those words, lol.

-E

Yungflutes · 2006-01-02 00:50:17

Hi Ken, Whew, the kids are finally asleep. Happy New Year all!

kenwolman wrote:
Depending on how I seem to be focusing the airstream, the note could be a half-tone higher or lower than a "mean" I haven't been able to determine. Do I go by the sweetest-sounding note? That is my inclination: the most steady and gentlest sound appears to be the right one,

Shakuhachi timbres are difficult to describe. Was it Laurie Anderson that said describing art with words is like describing architecture with music? The "mean" on your 2.1 is perfectly in pitch at A =440hz. The tonic is at B. Play into a tuner and see if you can get the note into pitch. Most beginners can produce nice, beautiful notes but they will be flat. If getting the B up to pitch gives you a nasty sounding note, it means you haven't learned how to blow properly yet. It will come but it will take some time. For those who missed my earlier post discussing SASA Buki - the best way to approach learning how to blow a shakuhachi note, read it here.http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=166

This sound sample is just one example of what can happen with the pitches of Ro (tonic) when played with different embroucher techniques and blowing intensities. http://www.yungflutes.com/samples/shakuhachipitches.mp3 By simply trying to find the correct emboucher, you are probably employing these techniques. What you need to do is learn how to indentify what you are doing right and do more of it. This is when playing with experienced people helps.

You can hear the timbre, pitch and harmonic overtones change according to the intensity of breath and angle of embroucher. This is why people say playing the shakuhachi can be difficult. In order to play music, one needs to be able to produce a pitch and hear proper intervals.

but then I can't account for why a wider or narrower stream varies the sound and pitch so greatly.

The embroucher regulates the flow, width, angles and intensity of the air stream. When this jet stream hits the utaguchi properly, half of the air goes into the flute and half goes out. This produces a tone. If the air stream is somewhat splayed, it is less focused and will disperse the air molecules with less velocity. When the jet stream is focused well, the stream hits the utaguchi with more force so that the molecules in the bore is sent off vibrating at a greater intensity and higher velocity, thus producing a stronger or clearer note. The stronger the note, the higher the frequency and therefore sharper in pitch. The weaker the air stream, the smaller the frequecy and thus flatter the note. This is how I understand it. Does any one have another view to share?

Does any of this make any sense?

Ken

Yes, for the uninitiated, the shakuhachi can sound strange because we here in America rarely hear this unique timbre in our everyday lives. We are not accustomed to it nor do we think we know how to listen, interpret, or appreciate it. If you know music, shakuhachi notes are not that different. When you say you do not understand Taniguchi's tone, perhaps you mean you do not understand the musical intervals? The music is another issue and one that we can certainly chew the fat on all night but the actual tone or note of the shakuhachi is just a musical note with it's own unique harmonic balance, much like the violin or human voice.

Here is a MP3 of a 2.1 EARTH Model shakuhachi with no utaguchi inlay or lacquer in the bore. It is nearly identical to the one you have, except yours is naturally more responsive. I am playing something you may recognize so that you can ponder the timbre of the notes in relation to a familiar mode. http://www.yungflutes.com/samples/happyhappy.mp3 .

Happy New Year all!

May you prosper in health, love and shakuhachi technique!
Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2006-01-02 19:06:33)

selfdestruction · 2006-02-25 08:18:53

"Depending on how I seem to be focusing the airstream, the note could be a half-tone higher or lower than a "mean" I haven't been able to determine. Do I go by the sweetest-sounding note? That is my inclination: the most steady and gentlest sound appears to be the right one, but then I can't account for why a wider or narrower stream varies the sound and pitch so greatly."

One factor in determining the best position could be playing the sweetest sounding note, but often for a beginner, a sweet sounding note is produced with too meri a position. In the long run, playing in a general meri position will probably limit your ability to play deep meri notes efficiently.

So, I guess two factors involved in determing the mean are good quality tone, and how much leeway you have for meri notes.

Your idea of what a good quality sound is will probably change over time.

For a beginner, deep meri notes such as ro dai meri or maru no u are usually a bit sharp, because these notes are hard to play. People get lazy, or dont work hard enough, or underemphasise the importance of hitting the right pitch. Eventually, after playing for some time, you may desire greater volume, or broader tone possibilities from meri notes. So, as well as your idea of good sound changing, the value you place on tone and pitch for meri notes may also gain weight.

In the beginning, if you can make a sound, be happy! (: Dont worry about it too much; no doubt you will change the way you play the shakuhachi gradually. Dont worry about the mean pitch, unless you are playing with other musicians. In such a case you would need the mean pitch to be correct.

My personal opinion is that playing in a general kari position is best. I get a much stronger, more open sound. I can blow a lot harder before the flute breaks into kan, a problem that a lot of meri players seem to struggle with. I have lots of play for deep meri notes and kamuri, and more tonal possibilities for meri notes. I guess there are disadvantages too. I find it more difficult to play sweet pianissimo notes since Im further from the utaguchi, but I havent played for such a long time, so I have no doubt its just a matter of practice.

The best position on a given flute is different for everyone. Teruo Furuya bought one of Yokoyama Katsuya's shakuhachi, which was in tune for Yokoyama sensei but way out for Furuya sensei, flat or sharp I cant remember. Furuya sensei had the length changed.

In another case, Kaoru Kakizakai's main 1.8 was originally made by Miura, modified by Yokoyama sensei, and then lengthened by five millimetres, probably after Kakizakai sensei attained it. So there you go, three players getting different results from one flute.

I would not suggest going only by the sweetest sounding note. I would suggest going to a teacher and learning to push the dynamic range, playing both as loudly and as quietly as you can. From this you will find the mean. If its sharp or flat and you need it to be in tune, you can have the length of the flute changed.

My mean pitch on my 1.8 is sharp by about 20 cents so I intend to have my shakuhachi lengthened at some stage.

Hope this helps!

Last edited by selfdestruction (2006-02-25 08:21:36)

nyokai · 2006-02-25 08:33:15

I would recommend getting some in person time with a teacher. An hour face-to-face with a teacher can make up for many hours of experimenting and emailing. Even half an hour!

Also, you may be interested in the "getting started" videos I made for beginners -- you can get them at shop.nyokai.com

Best wishes and good luck in your practice!

edosan · 2007-01-17 14:42:33

smith wrote:
I am trying to make a practice , temporary flute and I need to know how to position the holes. Any sugestions? Steve

Go to this link:

http://www.fides.dti.ne.jp/~sogawa/englishpagepvc.html

And to this link:

http://www.mujitsu.com/howtomakeshakuhachi.pdf

eB

Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

#1 2005-12-30 18:30:41

The true note?

#2 2005-12-30 22:14:56

Re: The true note?

#3 2005-12-31 01:04:39

Re: The true note?

kyoreiflutes wrote:

#4 2005-12-31 03:06:43

Re: The true note?

#5 2006-01-02 00:50:17

Re: The true note?

kenwolman wrote:

#6 2006-02-25 08:18:53

Re: The true note?

#7 2006-02-25 08:33:15

Re: The true note?

#8 2007-01-17 14:42:33

Re: The true note?

smith wrote:

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