Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Dear Edosan -

I'm more dense than I even thought - which is pretty awful.

Lemme try again, please.

On the lists of the 36 Kinko Honkyoku, there is no "KYOREI" without some prefix, i.e., either SHIN NO, KINSAN, UCHIKAE OR SHIMOTASKE. 

There is no plain "KYOREI" on the list of 36 KINKO HONKYOKU.

BUT THIS GETS WORSE.

THE MUSICAL PIECE WHICH RONNIE PLAYS ON THE YOUTUBE - WHICH HE CALLS "KYOREI" - AND WHICH I HAVE BEEN STUDYING FOR A MONTH - IS NOT ANY PIECE LISTED ON THE 36 ORIGINAL KINKO HONKYOKU.  I HAVE HEARD ALL OF THE FOUR KYOREI ON THE LIST, BUT RONNIE'S (AND MINE) IS NOT THERE.

"KYOREI" is missing from the list.

And, for what little it is worth, "KYOREI" is also not on WATAZUMI'S list of 21 DOKYOKU.

But, if it were one of the three original "HONKYOKU", as you say, from the 13th century or earlier, WHY DID KURASAWA KINKO MISS IT AND NOT INCLUDE IT IN HIS LIST??

WHY IS IT NOT A KINKO HONKYOKU?

What is it?

Again, thank you very much!

Gene

The answer to this is simple. "Kyorei" is not a Kinko honkyoku, therefore it is not listed among the 36 Kinko honkyoku.

It is a Myoan honkyoku. Ronnie is playing it because it's part of the Jin Nyodo repertoire. Jin took honkyoku from Nezasaha, Kinko and Myoan sources.

There are a lot of similar songs with different names and different songs with similar names in shakuhachi.

It is usually the last Honkyoku taught by Myoan Sensei because of the gravitas of the piece, but in the West a lot of people are teaching it to beginners because it appears to be less technical than other pieces. It's a quandary.

Gene wrote:

But yes indeed I very fully agree with your quandary issue, and I belive to have the feel for this gravitas of Kyorei will require far more than a few years of shakuhachi lessons, even from the best Sensei.

As there are no real beginners' 'études' honkyoku, it is quite normal - I understand - to begin learning pieces that are easy to play technically. But these pieces have much more to them than what a beginner can learn and understand. Later on you will go through them with your teacher again in order to take it up to the next level - which can be more complex breathing techniques or... if we talk about spiritual aspects, I am sure the students received some inside knowledge on that point too when the teacher assessed the student was ready.

Although one may not say Okuda Atsuya is an average shakuhachi teacher, he did that with certain pieces. Honte no Shirabe is one example. I learned that as my second piece. Throughout the 11 years I studied with him, he suggested now and then to go through Honte no Shirabe again - each time with some new things to learn. What a great way to learn. I still go back to study with him when I am in Japan. But it doesn't feel so much as an unbroken learning process any longer as I don't go to Japan that often.

Perhaps one of the problem with the teaching of Kyorei today is, that many teachers do not return to the piece again. As must as it is simple - there is a lot of depth to it.

I confess being the newest and greenest shakuhachi player on this forum, but for you other green-horn shakuhachi wannabes, I’ve got some great Nirvana news for you!

Nobody can play KYOREI any better than you can! 

The greatest shakuhachi masters, most of whom I of course admire and honor,  cannot play it one iota “better” than you can.

Honkyoku cannot be played “better” nor “worse”.

Honkyoku were not even originally considered to be “music” at all.  They always were and are today a type of personal and private Zen or Sutra chanting, never intended to be “entertainment” like an alto sax, cello nor piano.  Honkyoku was never even originally meant to be music to be  listened to! 

The purpose of Honkyoku has always been in its individual and private playing or blowing.  In blowing Honkyoku, the player is blowing Zen or Sui Zen, and he cannot blow Sui Zen in a “wrong” nor “beginner” fashion any more than a pro can blow Sui Zen in a “better” nor “more professional” mode.   

The quality the novice produces in his playing of KYOREI - or any Honkyoku - cannot be judged objectively nor subjectively by any other  human being.

Out of my 77 years -  although I have been a serious musician since I was 5 - I have only a total of perhaps two months with the shakuhachi.  Yet every day, along with my other shakuhachi practice, I unwrap my 2.8 chokan, and blow KYOREI for hours!  And I really sound great! 

To me. 

And – with Honkyoku – the blower of the Sui Zen is the only one who matters!

Go for it, newbies!

Gene Neill

Hi Gene,
I think that there is some confusion here between honkyoku and sui zen.  They may have been synonymous a couple of hundred years ago in Japan, but honkyoku survives as a study and in musical form in many cases to be played before an audience for what can rightfully be called entertainment.  Sui zen, on the other hand, remains a form of meditation that as you suggest, should not be confused with the prior.  In my opinion, and obviously in the opinion of many players here in Japan who play the Kinko repertoire, honkyoku, though revered  and respected in some ways as having an innate depth and personal-ness, is gladly and openly played in public situations and often to the great appreciation of the listener.  In some cases, en masse. In fact, many people on this list confess to having been moved to pick up the very daunting task of learning the shakuhachi simply because they heard a version of some honkyoku (possibly Kyorei or one of its derivatives) played in a masterful and moving way at some time.  Honkyoku in the Kinko style (there are many localized styles of honkyoku) has evolved and become very stylized.  Thus the existence of Kyorei and Shin Kyorei.  Is this to suggest that Kyorei is any more an adequate vehicle to express one's depths  or one's connectedness to the universe than Shin Kyorei simply because the latter has shown more evolution in a musical sense?  Is it also to say that because I play Kyorei, I am practicing sui zen?  The answers to those questions being what they may, in every case, what seems to be most important is 'mindfulness'.  One more rhetorical question before I shut up: Did somebody at some point in the past find a magical key in the relationship of a few notes blown through a hollow bamboo tube that opens the door to another or bigger reality that allows only one person in at a time and without having the thought,' man...what a trip!'?  I'm out.

Well spoken Nyokai.

As soon as you think you are the greatest, you are really doomed.  It is always good to be a learner: a student.  Even when you are teaching others, I think it is best to do so with a perspective of mutual learning. 

By the way.  I love trying to practice Kyorei.  It is one of the pieces that conviced me to try and learn the shakuhachi. 

The piece has a very intense and complex emotional dimension to it that needs to be conveyed, and so in a sense this is not an "easy" piece.  The sensitivity of the player to this hidden dimension (that is so critical to "good" music), is what seperates a mechanical performance from a magical one.  This other side of the music is not just emotion, but I don't have another word for it.  It is also something that is a functional part of the sonic expression, though I cannot point to it.  It is a shade of colour that hides in the notes and silences.  Or so it seems to me.  You know when it's there, and you know when it's not. 

I think the cultivation of this side of the music requires a kind of emotional maturity, and "wisdom" of sorts, which may account for the fact that many people come to the instrument somewhat later, after having gathered some valuable life experience. 

Anyways.  Just my 2 cents.  When I hear kyorei played with this other dimension I talked about, the results can be really amazing.  A machine could emulate kyorei, but only a sensitive human player could bring you to the brink of the abyss, or fill you with a sense of the infinite.

Last edited by Lorka (2008-02-12 13:23:13)

Personally, I feel my 'quality' as a player is measured more by my ability to be mindful of the playing rather than the technical mastery I've achieved. I have also noticed that once I've refined a technique I can let go of the thought process behind it easier.  Then I can play and relax and cultivate a more mindful presence.  So, for me, the two go hand in hand.  Each encourage and support the other.  I can see others disagreeing with me, and thats ok.  We all measure our own success differently. 

A machine could emulate kyorei, but only a sensitive human player could bring you to the brink of the abyss, or fill you with a sense of the infinite.

I totally agree.  I like playing in public (streets and subways and the like), and when I am more 'with it', people don't just slow down to listen.  They stop...and just stand there.  It's beautiful.

-Ryan

Last edited by withaquietmind (2008-02-13 02:31:17)

Zakarius wrote:

To illustrate, when I was in college I bought an electronic keyboard and went about trying to teach myself to play the piano. I was working on various classical pieces and made quite a bit of progress (in my own mind). At one point, a friend of a friend who happened to be quite a proficient pianist heard me practicing Moonlight Sonata. When he stopped to listen, I was quite proud to play through the piece which I had learned on my own. Afterwards, I asked him what he thought, not knowing that he was an excellent player. In the kindest possible words, he told me it was painful for him to listen to because there was no feeling in it. I was aghast until he sat down and played the piece -- I could really feel the magic of the music when he played it and immediately understood.

We speak of musical expression without any specifics. I think it might be helpful to understand that the good bulk of what we call"musical expression" is manipulation of volume and tone. Once you have got the timing and pitch right(no small feat) you can start paying attention to the dynamics of the sound. One of the unique characteristics of shakuhachi playing is volume and tone changes. Very common to have a soft note followed by a loud note(tsu no meri to ro is a primary example). Or an exreme volume change within a note.So, trying to extend your volume range is a helpful idea. Practice the extremes and open up your volume concept. You will find that the door to more "soulful" playing will open.

Gene wrote:

Honkyoku were not even originally considered to be “music” at all.  They always were and are today a type of personal and private Zen or Sutra chanting, never intended to be “entertainment” like an alto sax, cello nor piano.  Honkyoku was never even originally meant to be music to be  listened to!

I see earlier in the thread that Kyorie was originally played around 1000 AD and considered to be one of the first honkyoku. Rather than to say it wasn't wasn't originally considered to be music, my thoughts lead me to think that it was similar to Gregorian chant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant . It sounds in some ways similar, and it's a bit of a stretch, but some of the notation looks similar (the "neumes" about half way down the page). Like honkyoku, Gregorian chant wasn't meant for entertainment either, but served a religious purpose instead, and is still defined as music.

Apparently, I'm not the only individual to notice the similarities: http://www.komuso.com/people/Duncavage,_David.html