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#1 2008-10-21 15:55:44

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi everybody.

First of all I want to thank Ken La Cosse and Perry Yung for their andvices about fine tuning teqnique. Of course big thank’s to navaching.com creators, the most piece of pertrubation theory I’ve got there. Then I have seen the theory thirst time it seemed to me very hard to forecast the results and the possibilities in any situation. It was hard to imagine in my head every influence of  an addition what could be made. This was stopping me much time. And the Ken’s advice to go into the bore and experiment helped me. I used a beads on a string, and I was very surprised how solutions was coming themselves. But the theory helps to understand why the things are happen.

I was working on my first rootend flute some last months. And that is my first expierience using fine tuning technique. The situation was that otsu register was flatter than kan register (approximately  30-40 cents), there is nothing about every note just the common situation. First spot I’ve found was near to the center of the flute, and it is sharpen some Ro otsu and flatten Ro kan, flatten some Tsu kan. I’ve found next spot near to the senter of distance from the 3rd hole and the utaguchi. It is flatten some Re kan and Chi kan – make them playable in some meri position, and set the Hi and I kan pitches close to the proper places. I was plaing with two this beads in my flute some days and it’s seemed to me nice tuning configuration and it seemed quite enough for me. But it is about the pitch tuning. Another thig was that I’ve noticed that sound of Ro and Tsu in the otsu register bacame more dense and thick, that was the first spot-bead influence. I liked this sound change.

In some days I’ve built an addition in the bore(in the first spot) using blend of the epoxy glue and bamboo sawdust. Now there is some kind of the wall in the bottom of the bore. It is 2-3 mm high, and it is 10mm lenth along the bore (the same lenth has the bead that I’ve made from plasticine, it’s diameter near 4mm). So I’ve made it. And it influence on the pitch like the bead, but there is no influence on the tone, like the bead was doing. That had disturbed me some, and there is no ideas in my head why this happens.

Did you have the similar situations? May be you can explain why this happens, or give me some recommendations?

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#2 2008-10-21 23:09:36

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi dream of nobody.
The flute reacts differently to different temperatures. So if the flute felt one way after playing it for 20 minutes, it will react differently after only 2 minutes of playing. It may not have the same feeling until you've played it for the same amount of time as when you applied the material.

I play the flute for at least 20 minutes before I make an adjustment. That's when the flute is at it's peak performance level.

I hope this helps, Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#3 2008-10-22 04:55:07

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

Hi everybody.

First of all I want to thank Ken La Cosse and Perry Yung for their andvices about fine tuning teqnique. Of course big thank’s to navaching.com creators, the most piece of pertrubation theory I’ve got there. Then I have seen the theory thirst time it seemed to me very hard to forecast the results and the possibilities in any situation. It was hard to imagine in my head every influence of  an addition what could be made. This was stopping me much time. And the Ken’s advice to go into the bore and experiment helped me. I used a beads on a string, and I was very surprised how solutions was coming themselves. But the theory helps to understand why the things are happen.

I was working on my first rootend flute some last months. And that is my first expierience using fine tuning technique. The situation was that otsu register was flatter than kan register (approximately  30-40 cents), there is nothing about every note just the common situation. First spot I’ve found was near to the center of the flute, and it is sharpen some Ro otsu and flatten Ro kan, flatten some Tsu kan. I’ve found next spot near to the senter of distance from the 3rd hole and the utaguchi. It is flatten some Re kan and Chi kan – make them playable in some meri position, and set the Hi and I kan pitches close to the proper places. I was plaing with two this beads in my flute some days and it’s seemed to me nice tuning configuration and it seemed quite enough for me. But it is about the pitch tuning. Another thig was that I’ve noticed that sound of Ro and Tsu in the otsu register bacame more dense and thick, that was the first spot-bead influence. I liked this sound change.

In some days I’ve built an addition in the bore(in the first spot) using blend of the epoxy glue and bamboo sawdust. Now there is some kind of the wall in the bottom of the bore. It is 2-3 mm high, and it is 10mm lenth along the bore (the same lenth has the bead that I’ve made from plasticine, it’s diameter near 4mm). So I’ve made it. And it influence on the pitch like the bead, but there is no influence on the tone, like the bead was doing. That had disturbed me some, and there is no ideas in my head why this happens.

Did you have the similar situations? May be you can explain why this happens, or give me some recommendations?

I would say that if you have a 30-40 cent difference between the octaves you have some major problems with the bore profile in general. IMO it would be better to start your fine tuning with the octaves much closer than that. There are standard bore profiles published that, if you follow, will get you in the ballpark for fine tuning.

Toby

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#4 2008-10-22 10:57:24

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Dream,

Depending on where the additions are in the bore and the overall bore profile, there are often times when an action will influence pitch and not tone or even tone and not pitch. Or, maybe disproportionate amounts of each. Also, it's not always easy to exactly mimic the influence of a bead with ji. It's more of an approximation.

Perry and Toby make good points about temperature and overall bore profile. Using spot tuning to correct 30-40 cent octave differences can cause problems in other areas. That much difference usually suggests that half the bore is disproportionately larger or smaller than the other half. So, it's likely best to get the bore profile dimensions closer to an established average. That should take care of the major problems before starting on spot tuning.

Ken

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#5 2008-10-23 08:01:37

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Thank’s for your answers and advices.

Thank’s Perry for your advice, I think it’s very important knowledge. But that is not helps in the sutuation I have. The situation is next. I take the flute(there is the epoxy addition) in my hands and it sounds as before, but if I put the bead at the first spot place(there the epoxy is already) I can hear that sound have changed in the way I like. May be the things could change after 20 minutes of playing, but it seems to me that tendencies are must stay constant. Of course I could mistake.

Thank’s Tobby and Ken to advice using standard bore profiles. My question is where I can get them? And another how do they work? I mean there is can be different diameters for a flute length. And there is different lenths we can use. So there is the profile for every bamboo size? Or we can scale them to every situation? And one more if I know the good profile how I should work with the bore? I can assume there is two ways: to use the precious cast bore technology or to go in the bore with some sanding tool and remove excesses in the bore. And my question is does an ancient masters used the bore profiles? I can assume they “used them” then they was searching the bamboo in the forest and was measuring the bamboo diameters in some important points.

I’ve seen some kind of standart profile in a web-site, some kind of bore profile is in Ken’s “How to make shakuhachi”. It describes the bore from utaguchi to the foot of the flute. So there is fixed size of the bell hole, fixed inside shape of the bell. But I’ve seen photos of different flutes and they had different sizes of the bell hole. I know that the bell hole size like a size of  the playing holes it’s masters preference, and he can vary the things there to achieve different results. What you can say about it?

Ken you wrote: “Also, it's not always easy to exactly mimic the influence of a bead with ji.”
If  the results in using ji and bead are so different, what is another way to find places that influence the sound? Or we can try to use there the things what had worked in some previous flutes.

Ken you wrote: “That much difference usually suggests that half the bore is disproportionately larger or smaller than the other half.” I’ve read this your sentence in some of your posts, but to be clear I can’t understand how the half’s in conical bore can have equal volume. Apparently foot part haves lower volume. May be you gived the explanations before, sorry if I ask again.

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#6 2008-10-23 12:38:12

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

Thank’s Tobby and Ken to advice using standard bore profiles. My question is where I can get them? And another how do they work? I mean there is can be different diameters for a flute length. And there is different lenths we can use. So there is the profile for every bamboo size? Or we can scale them to every situation? And one more if I know the good profile how I should work with the bore?

Dream,

You can find twelve graphs of shakuhachi bore profiles ranging in length from 1.3' to 2.4' here:

http://www.shaku8.com/makeshaku8/data/naikei.html

They represent a composite of many shakuhachi whose parameters have been averaged for each length of flute. There is a relatively wide window which you can stray from these averages. For example, you can make thinner or wider bore shakuhachi or open the bottom end more for pitch and or volume. However, if you stay within the ratio of these bore measurements for thin, medium or wide bore shakuhachi, you're more likely to start from a good point.

Often, a nice rootend piece of bamboo can be close to these profiles after opening up the bottom end. When making jinashi shakuhachi you can eye it and work by feel to find balance. With jiari you can be more exact about measuring the bore of you wish.



dreamofnobody wrote:

Ken you wrote: “Also, it's not always easy to exactly mimic the influence of a bead with ji.”
If  the results in using ji and bead are so different, what is another way to find places that influence the sound? Or we can try to use there the things what had worked in some previous flutes.

Beads are good for giving you an initial idea of what is happening in the bore. It gives you more obvious results. From there you can mimic the effects of ji closely with pieces of wet newspaper. This way, you have a better idea of how much ji to apply.

dreamofnobody wrote:

Ken you wrote: “That much difference usually suggests that half the bore is disproportionately larger or smaller than the other half.” I’ve read this your sentence in some of your posts, but to be clear I can’t understand how the half’s in conical bore can have equal volume.

Octave tuning problems are often the result of 1/2 the bore length having too much or too little volume (space) in relation to each other. There is still a taper in the bore but one half may be a little bigger or smaller than it should be. One way to check this is by filling half the bore with a long piece of folded wet newspaper. If it makes the problem worse, take it out and try filling the other half. Sometimes this works!

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#7 2008-11-13 19:01:48

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Great thank’s Ken for your answer.

You wrote:
“There is a relatively wide window which you can stray from these averages. For example, you can make thinner or wider bore shakuhachi or open the bottom end more for pitch and or volume. However, if you stay within the ratio of these bore measurements for thin, medium or wide bore shakuhachi, you're more likely to start from a good point.”

1. My question is how I should use this graphs with another(thinner or wider) bores.
Let’s look at the 1.8 graph, and analyse it some. There is no changes in diameter d0=20mm from 0mm to 80mm; then close to linear decrease of diameter from d0=20mm to d1=15.4mm, that is happens from 80mm to 465mm;  and close to linear increace from d1=15.4mm to d2=18.5mm from 465mm to 545mm. Let’s do some calculations.

k1 =  d1/d0 = 15.4 / 20 = 0.77

k2 =  d2/d0 = 18.5 / 20 = 0.92

Let’s assume that a flute has 545mm length, and  it has d0=22mm in the utaguchi. So let’s do some calculations for this flute

d1 =  k1*d0 = 0.77*22 = 16.9mm

d2 =  k2*d0 = 0.92*22 = 20.2mm

so we have this values and we can make the approximate linear graph of wishful bore profile.

Is it right way of thinking about it?

2. Ken my next question is about the bottom end opening.

Let’s assume that our flute has the ideal bore from utaguchi to the gorobushi.
Next step we have to open the bell. What aim we are tring to achieve(by enlarging the bottom end) in this step?
1) to achieve the wishful tone color and volume of Ro, no matters the pitch of Ro;
But if we have definite Ro pitch that is compel us to place the plaing holes in accordance with              the Ro pitch. I mean that if we have sharper Ro than we have to move plaing holes some closer to the utaguchi, and if we have flatter Ro than we have to move plaing holes some closer to the bottom end. So in this case the question is next: is there the octave pitch balance for every holes position (with this ideal bore)?
or
2)  We place the playing holes to the places they should be. And after that we are enlarging the bottom hole to that moment then the Ro pitch will be tuned with another notes.

3. You wrote:

“Beads are good for giving you an initial idea of what is happening in the bore. It gives you more obvious results. From there you can mimic the effects of ji closely with pieces of wet newspaper. This way, you have a better idea of how much ji to apply.”
Thank’s for the idea about using the wet newspaper pieces. But I really can’t understand what I should do in the situation with my flute. I’ve found a spot and the bead is influence the pich of notes and their tone colour, but ji addition influence only on the pitch(more in kan). Should I find another spots, to affect tone colour? Or should I experiment with size of the ji addition (simulate it with different sizes of wet paper) in this spot? Of course I can go in both ways, but may be you can advice me something with your expierience?

I know that “longer” additions affect more on the otsu notes, “shorter” affect more on the can notes. Can you tell me please the approximate size(the best to start from) of the piece of paper to affect on utsu notes for a 1.8 flute. The same question is for kan register. It seems that there was some about it on the forum, but it hard to find the place.

4. You wrote:
“Octave tuning problems are often the result of 1/2 the bore length having too much or too little volume (space) in relation to each other. There is still a taper in the bore but one half may be a little bigger or smaller than it should be.”

Thank’s for the comments. I’ve understood the idea. There was nothing about equality, it is all about proportions.
I’ve measured my bore diameters in number of points, and it look’s like it’s tighter than it should be in the bottom half. Seems that’s cause the situation in the flute.

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#8 2008-11-14 12:19:54

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Dreamofnobody,

I applaud you for your diligent investigations.

When I first showed up for shakuhachi making lessons with Kinya, I thought I would learn about numbers and how to shape the bore. After meeting him and hearing him play, I knew that in order to truly learn how to make shakuhachi, I had to learn how to play.

Do you presently study with an experienced teacher? If you do not, I would encourage you to find a good teacher. Learning under a master player will help you greatly in making. Even today, my playing lessons with Ralph Samuelson teaches me much about making. Once you have a grasp on a style of playing, you will have a direction on how to apply the numbers.

There are some fine teachers here who teach through the internet.

Just my two hertz, I mean cents,

a deep bow, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#9 2008-11-15 06:52:31

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Perry.

Thank’s for your comments and for the advices. That’s a great thing to have a teacher I think, but I really hard can imagine that throuhg the internet. And to say truth now I’m not in the situation then have enougth money to pay the lessons. And it’s hard to imagine to me to learn the music from the person whom I do not now personal, in real life. I’m not so big ignoramus in music, before the shakuhachi I was playing the guitar in 8 years period, I play some on the djembe, and compose some music using computer. I’ve learned the elements of shakuhachi notation and playing on the Eugeniy Sukhorukov e-site “shaku-rus.com”. There is the russian forum “shakuhachi.ru” there we discuss some things, and share our creativity. I can put records of my playing and we can discuss some moments with more expierenced players on the forum, I could get some recomendations. That is my school. I listen records of shakuhachi music, and I try to take some moments there, I can listen some compositions and then play them. Another thing is in the level I could play them(that is the differense between master and beginner); and in this case the big value I think has listening of master’s playing and my own, observe the difference and work on my play, take the things I like from his style.
I can’t say nothing about how good and how right my playing technique, but that is my level. You can listen some my records there “http://www.realmusic.ru/dreamofemtiness_shaku”, there is some classic and some my own compositions. I play them on my own flutes, last composition in the list  I play on the flute I was speaking in this topic.
I make my flutes in accordance with my level, as you make yours with your level. I have no great aims in my playing and flutemaking, I just do it sometimes and try to have some pleasure or some another things from the process. Flutemaking is just interresting and gripping process for me with the small piece of magic inside. Making and playing is one united process for me.
And all the questions I’ve asked that is consequence from my own expierience and my knowledges about flutemaking. So it seems to me normal to ask questions on the forum, because we here I think to share our expierience. I ask questions because sometimes some things and conceptions in the making process are not clear in my head.  If you suggest that my playing level is too low to discuss flutemaking(or some concrete points in flutemaking) you can tell me that. And about the numbers, it just the language I used to say about some ideas in my head.

Best regards, Sergey.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-11-15 06:53:17)

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#10 2008-11-15 12:55:31

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

Is it right way of thinking about it?

Dream,

I think it's the right way of thinking about it if it works!

I tend to go at these things by starting with a general idea of the scientific principles at work then applying them more by "feel" than by precise calculations. However, we're all wired differently so anything that can give one clues towards making a good flute is beneficial.

A lot of flutemaking is about self discovery. What makes it very interesting is that we all seem to have our individual methods developed through trial and error. I'm afraid the only advice I can give here is to test the methods that come to you naturally and see how they work. Go for it!


dreamofnobody wrote:

2. Ken my next question is about the bottom end opening.

Let’s assume that our flute has the ideal bore from utaguchi to the gorobushi.
Next step we have to open the bell. What aim we are tring to achieve(by enlarging the bottom end) in this step?
1) to achieve the wishful tone color and volume of Ro, no matters the pitch of Ro;
But if we have definite Ro pitch that is compel us to place the plaing holes in accordance with              the Ro pitch. I mean that if we have sharper Ro than we have to move plaing holes some closer to the utaguchi, and if we have flatter Ro than we have to move plaing holes some closer to the bottom end. So in this case the question is next: is there the octave pitch balance for every holes position (with this ideal bore)?
or
2)  We place the playing holes to the places they should be. And after that we are enlarging the bottom hole to that moment then the Ro pitch will be tuned with another notes.

I think you can go at it either way. If you are using exact specs, you can drill holes where they are supposed to be, then adjust later. If you are working with approximate specs, it can be easier to work in a more organic way and adjust as you go. Each method has its strengths and weaknesses.



dreamofnobody wrote:

Should I find another spots, to affect tone colour? Or should I experiment with size of the ji addition (simulate it with different sizes of wet paper) in this spot? Of course I can go in both ways, but may be you can advice me something with your expierience?

I know that “longer” additions affect more on the otsu notes, “shorter” affect more on the can notes. Can you tell me please the approximate size(the best to start from) of the piece of paper to affect on utsu notes for a 1.8 flute. The same question is for kan register. It seems that there was some about it on the forum, but it hard to find the place.

Yeah, bore adjustment can be frustrating. When things don't work as they should I've found it helpful to just do something different. Experiment with different size blobs of ji, different areas, different combinations, etc. Basically, I try to exhaust all the obvious areas first, then experiment with arbitrary locations in the bore. If you keep mental notes of what happens whenever you do something in the bore, your understanding slowly expands.

Nelson has a good illustration on his page about the hot spots in the bore for each note and octaves. This gives you an idea of how much area in the bore will influence each note. I like to use as little space as possible if I can get away with it since longer additions or subtractions will have more of an influence on other notes. However, sometimes a longer addition will take care of two problems with one fix.

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#11 2008-11-15 19:26:19

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Sergey,

I am certainly not saying that you are not advanced enough to talk about shakuhachi making and apologize if it was taken that way. I think everyone should make a shakuhachi or maybe 20 shakuhachi. Then we'll all be able to experience that unique and mysterious process. In fact, I am planning on an all day shakuhachi making workshop for beginner's and more advanced makers to be held in NYC soon.

My hopes are that everyone can come to the forum to learn about, or, share their craft in making. What I was trying to say was that I know exactly where you are in the making process. And the best way to move further with clarity is to study the music (which is one of the reasons why I continue to study). This way you will have a clear objective.

Shakuhachi making is both a craft and an art. Like all art, the artist must understand the aesthetic she/he wants to create. Or, at least understand the vernacular of the style and follow or react against it. If you are interested in precise bore specs, you must be interested in precisely what that will create. A tight bore will have a brighter faster flute, like a modern Tozan flute. The wider bore will usually have less "action". This is a generalization of course as the utaguchi shape and bamboo walls affect the performance. My question for you is, "what kind of flute are you trying to make?" After determining that, the bore specs should then be looked at.

If the aspect ratio is close and the holes are drilled close to the correct placements, the flute should play relatively well in tune. That is done in crafting. Turning the flute into a fine shakuhachi is the art part,  the mysterious part that is difficult to teach. One of my art professors once said, "Art can not be taught. But, it can be learned".

Tell you what, you tell me what your goal is with shakuhachi making and I'll try to answer your questions so that they are more applicable. Until then, all I can say is, "well, it could be this, or it could be that. It depends upon what you're after."

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#12 2008-11-15 20:17:46

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Any idea on a date/cost on that workshop you're planning?  I'd be VERY interested.

Jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#13 2008-11-15 22:42:22

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

jaybeemusic wrote:

Any idea on a date/cost on that workshop you're planning?  I'd be VERY interested.

Jacques

Hey Jacques, I'm thinking sometime in January or February. I'll try to accommodate the participants' schedules. When are you free? smile

Best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#14 2008-11-18 14:10:34

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Thank’s Ken for your answer.

1. Ken You wrote:

“I tend to go at these things by starting with a general idea of the scientific principles at work then applying them more by "feel" than by precise calculations. However, we're all wired differently so anything that can give one clues towards making a good flute is beneficial.

A lot of flutemaking is about self discovery. What makes it very interesting is that we all seem to have our individual methods developed through trial and error. I'm afraid the only advice I can give here is to test the methods that come to you naturally and see how they work. Go for it!”

I’m work on my flutes by “feel” too, my main instruments are my ears, my eyes, intuintion, and inside feelings. And I’ve never used precise calculations before. And I’m absolutely agree with you that the most importace has your oun discoveries and the things that you understood and felt from your expierience than all the words and theories. And it’s really truth for me that discoveries that is one of interesting sides in the flutemaking.

But this is general things and if to be more concrete, that was your(and Toby) advice to use the bore profiles, and it was your words that they could be used for “thinner or wider bore shakuhachi”. So my first question was “how I should use this graphs with another(thinner or wider) bores?”. And that was the main question. Next was just my suggestion of how I could use it.

After your advice about bore profiles, I’ve understood that it’s really concrete shape of the bore that gives good octave balance, and there is nothing to invent. We just could use the expierience of previous makers, who have found this bore shape from their long work.

So my idea was to measure the bore diameter in some(10-12 points is enougth to show the situation) points before making of playing holes. Then I planned to compare my measurements with the ideal bore profile. Then to remove excess in the bore if it needed, then work on the playing holes.
May be there is could be another point in the making process when we can remove exesses?


2. You wrote:

“I think you can go at it either way. If you are using exact specs, you can drill holes where they are supposed to be, then adjust later. If you are working with approximate specs, it can be easier to work in a more organic way and adjust as you go. Each method has its strengths and weaknesses.”

Yes, you are right it’s really just two ways.
I’ll try to explain my question in another way. Let’s assume that our flute has the ideal bore from the utaguchi to the gorobushi. If we want to make the sound colour of our flute more ‘quet’, ‘deep’, ‘vague’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some smaller(as another playing holes); Ro pitch in this situation is more flat; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the bottom of the flute. Another situation then we want to make sound ‘bright’, ‘loud’, ‘with much air’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some larger(as another palying holes); Ro pitch in this situation goes sharp; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the utaguchi. So this holes migration could have near 10-15mm lengt I could assume. Is there the octave pitch balance for every holes position (with this ideal bore)? And that was the most interresting qestion for me.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-11-18 14:24:31)

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#15 2008-11-18 14:12:59

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Perry. Thank’s for your answer.

You wrote:
“I am certainly not saying that you are not advanced enough to talk about shakuhachi making and apologize if it was taken that way.”

There is no problems Perry. I just wanted to say that may be it’s hard to have dialog with me about some things in flutemaking, cause my level is too low, then you could say about it. And may be it’s impossible to me to undertand some things, or work with some things or techniques, cause my level is too low. That is all I meaned.

You wrote:
“In fact, I am planning on an all day shakuhachi making workshop for beginner's and more advanced makers to be held in NYC soon.”
Can you tell me what is NYC?

You wrote:
“What I was trying to say was that I know exactly where you are in the making process. And the best way to move further with clarity is to study the music.”

I’m uderstand you absolutely. And I understand that with teacher the education process could go much faster and more intelligent. And may be I’ll really think about it seriously.

You wrote:
“Shakuhachi making is both a craft and an art. Like all art, the artist must understand the aesthetic she/he wants to create. Or, at least understand the vernacular of the style and follow or react against it. If you are interested in precise bore specs, you must be interested in precisely what that will create. A tight bore will have a brighter faster flute, like a modern Tozan flute. The wider bore will usually have less "action". This is a generalization of course as the utaguchi shape and bamboo walls affect the performance. My question for you is, "what kind of flute are you trying to make?" After determining that, the bore specs should then be looked at.”

I’m not interested in precise bore specs, and I do not wat to do my flutes by a formulas.
For this moment main aim for me is to understand(!) how to make well tuned (well ballanced in both oktaves) flutes. To understand internal laws and policy. In this phase it is not very important for me how flute reacts, fast or slow. My rootend pieces are most have standart or wider bores, or much wider bores. But may be in my next harvesting trip, I’ll get more bamboo with some thinner bores; and it will be interresting for me to experiment with this sizes.

You wrote:
“You tell me what your goal is with a shakuhachi making and I'll try to answer your questions with a more informed response.”

There is no goal with a shakuhachi making, besides having pleasure from the process.

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#16 2008-11-18 15:46:35

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

So my first question was “how I should use this graphs with another(thinner or wider) bores?”.

One way to approach using pre-existing bore profiles for wide and/or thinner bore shakuhachi is to first locate some specific spots in the bore. Looks like you have a similar idea.

For example, if you study the bore profile of the 1.8 you'll notice that there are changes along the bore. The obvious change is the choke point at 46.5cm but there are also more subtle changes at 8cm, 14cm, 25cm and 36cm. You can apply these spots to wider or thinner bore shakuhachi by being aware of these areas in the bore as you work. They are all possible clues. The diameter will obviously be different but the idea is to take on the general contour of the bore profile.

There is nothing exact about this method. It's more a way of broadening your road map of the bore.

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/18.gif

dreamofnobody wrote:

I’ll try to explain my question in another way. Let’s assume that our flute has the ideal bore from the utaguchi to the gorobushi. If we want to make the sound colour of our flute more ‘quet’, ‘deep’, ‘vague’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some smaller(as another playing holes); Ro pitch in this situation is more flat; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the bottom of the flute. Another situation then we want to make sound ‘bright’, ‘loud’, ‘with much air’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some larger(as another palying holes); Ro pitch in this situation goes sharp; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the utaguchi. So this holes migration could have near 10-15mm lengt I could assume. Is there the octave pitch balance for every holes position (with this ideal bore)? And that was the most interresting qestion for me.

I think what your are asking is, "Will slight changes in hole placement influence the octave pitch balance of the holes?"

I'd say in perfect theory, yes. Any change is going to have an influence somewhere. In practice, especially with a jinashi approach, it's a fuzzier question because it assumes you are starting with an "ideal" bore. Of course that opens up a big can of worms!

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#17 2008-11-19 20:15:18

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Sergey,

dreamofnobody wrote:

You wrote:
“In fact, I am planning on an all day shakuhachi making workshop for beginner's and more advanced makers to be held in NYC soon.”
Can you tell me what is NYC?

New York City. I am planning around the end of January. Those interested can contact me directly and I'll try to find the best day for everyone.

You wrote:
“You tell me what your goal is with a shakuhachi making and I'll try to answer your questions with a more informed response.”

There is no goal with a shakuhachi making, besides having pleasure from the process.

Great! Then, please come to my workshop,  It should be very pleasurable! smile

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#18 2008-11-22 09:29:39

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

I’ll try to explain my question in another way. Let’s assume that our flute has the ideal bore from the utaguchi to the gorobushi. If we want to make the sound colour of our flute more ‘quet’, ‘deep’, ‘vague’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some smaller(as another playing holes); Ro pitch in this situation is more flat; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the bottom of the flute. Another situation then we want to make sound ‘bright’, ‘loud’, ‘with much air’ and so on we have to make our botom hole some larger(as another palying holes); Ro pitch in this situation goes sharp; and in this situation we should place the playing holes some closer to the utaguchi. So this holes migration could have near 10-15mm lengt I could assume. Is there the octave pitch balance for every holes position (with this ideal bore)? And that was the most interresting qestion for me.

The extra "compliance" (as the scientists say) added by the fingerholes is relatively minor, especially on the shakuhachi with its small holes (as compared to sax or flute, for instance). What effect it does have is manifested as a slight lowering of pitch when compared to an identical bore without such fingerholes, but the effect is global, and does not change between the octaves. There is a further effect called the "tonehole lattice effect", in which a series of open holes acts as a kind of high-pass filter. Smaller holes have a low cutoff frequency and so give a mellower tone, while larger holes have the opposite effect. I think this is what you are referring to.

The sounding frequency of any hole in the bore is determined by two quantities: the position and the size. As a rough guide, variations of 10% in the hole diameter, or 1% in distance to the acoustical top of the instrument cause variations in tuning of about 10 cents.

True octaves depend on having the paritals line up correctly, and this is a function of the bore profile, not the fingerholes. Because a certain amount of what is called "mode locking" exists, bore profiles can vary somewhat and still have at least some of the partials at the correct frequencies, but this can break down as you go higher, giving a lot of trouble (for us) in the dai-kan. And in fact up there moving or changing the postion and/or size of the fingerholes can have a large effect, but not so in the otsu or kan. Trouble with any note in the otsu or kan almost always can be traced to a bore problem at a displacement antinode of the fundamental of the problem note, or of one of its significant partials.

It should also be realized that there is no "ideal" bore, just as there is no ideal animal or ideal child. Each bore is a compromise, with strengths and weaknesses. For instance a thinner bore tends to make the high notes easier to sound and the response lively, but at the cost of thinness of tone and poorer response in the lows. A wide bore gives a strong low register, but the sound is often rather dull and lacking focus, with slower response and a difficult top end. I believe that what we wish to achieve is "balance".

One further note: I have been studying the acoustic effects of sharp fingerhole edges in the bore. These always lead to significant acoustic losses, especially with small holes such as on the shakuhachi, and especially at louder playing volumes. It is acoustically very advantageous to undercut all your fingerholes, or at the very least to round the inner edges. Rounding the edges on the outside is also highly recommended.

That all being said, you do have to get within certain limits in order to have a decent bore, and this is where the published bore profiles are extremely valuable. Those will at least get you in the right neighborhood, and from there it is the "art" that Perry speaks of that can create a truly outstanding, balanced instrument as opposed to a merely adequate one. But if you are outside that "sweet spot" no amount of fiddling is ever going to solve all the various problems of response and intonation that you will encounter.

There is a reason that dedicated shakuhachi makers study and apprentice themselves for years: it is to give them a solid foundation in the basics and a feel for and control of the effects of fine adjustments to those basics.

Lacking a master, I strongly advise you--if you want to make decent instruments--to start with the bore profiles that have been worked out over the decades (as well as hole sizes and placements). Once you have firmly mastered those, you will have the foundation to begin to explore the small tweaks and adjustments that will give your instruments special character while remaining well-playing instruments.

...my two cents...

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-11-22 09:34:06)

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#19 2008-11-22 19:16:49

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi Toby, Thanks for sharing your expertise. I would say that was more than 2 cents...more like a whole interval! smile

A master shakuhachi maker once said to me that the best ways to make shakuhachi is to copy the best. One can argue whether it's the best way, but it certainly is one way.

Sergey, if you can not study with a shakuhachi teacher or maker, perhaps another way is to get your hands on a fine shakuhachi and try to replicate it.

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#20 2008-11-22 21:26:22

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

I heartily agree with Perry! If you have a good flute that is a wonderful starting point. Duplicate (as best you can) that instrument's geometry and go from there. The wonderful thing about the shakuhachi is the ability to continuously refine (or at least experiment on) the bore. If you have a good starting point you can go from there with your own ideas and explorations. If bore changes affect the tuning of individual notes, it is always possible to fine-tune that with undercutting or slight filling at the lower part of the holes, such as that which Shinzan does. But it is useless doing that if the flute does not have true octaves.


Toby

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#21 2008-12-09 12:28:30

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi again.
Ken thanks for your answers and comments. It seems we talked about similar methods. And there is one thing I've understood that it is better to find some things by yourself than to ask much questions. smile
Perry, thanks for the invitation. It would be great to meet in your workshop if I'll appear one day in NYC.

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#22 2008-12-15 13:56:32

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Thank's Toby for your advices and comments, they are very conceptual and informative. Just one thing I want to say that I've never meaned "ideal bore" as ideal. It was just abstract term to say about the bore geometry that gives good octaves balance. Of course there is no ideal bore as no ideal sound, as no ideal leaf, ... smile
There is just one thing I want to ask. You wrote that "True octaves depend on having the paritals line up correctly, and this is a function of the bore profile, not the fingerholes". Using my small knowledge of the pertrubation theory I can assume that the part from an opened hole to the utaguchi haves the most influence on the partials. So I want so say that for the 3rd(for example) hole the geometry of the bore from the hole to the utaguchi haves most influence on the hole octaves balance. Is it right suggestions?
And there is one more suggestinon I can make that if there is the situation then the kan is some sharp regarding to the otsu that signify the lower part of the flute haves lower volume than it "should be". And if we make the flute without some precise calculations then we can try to enlarge some the lower part of the flute by sanding to change the situation.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-12-15 17:42:33)

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#23 2008-12-17 09:29:46

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

dreamofnobody wrote:

Thank's Toby for your advices and comments, they are very conceptual and informative. Just one thing I want to say that I've never meaned "ideal bore" as ideal. It was just abstract term to say about the bore geometry that gives good octaves balance. Of course there is no ideal bore as no ideal sound, as no ideal leaf, ... smile
There is just one thing I want to ask. You wrote that "True octaves depend on having the paritals line up correctly, and this is a function of the bore profile, not the fingerholes". Using my small knowledge of the pertrubation theory I can assume that the part from an opened hole to the utaguchi haves the most influence on the partials. So I want so say that for the 3rd(for example) hole the geometry of the bore from the hole to the utaguchi haves most influence on the hole octaves balance. Is it right suggestions?
And there is one more suggestinon I can make that if there is the situation then the kan is some sharp regarding to the otsu that signify the lower part of the flute haves lower volume than it "should be". And if we make the flute without some precise calculations then we can try to enlarge some the lower part of the flute by sanding to change the situation.

There are only two "mathematically correct" woodwind bores: a cylinder and a cone. Theoretically, only these pure shapes produce partials at perfect harmonic intervals. I'll come back to that in a minute...

Essentially what is happening is that a standing wave is set up between the utaguchi and the first open tone hole (although that is super-oversimplified). That determines the fundamental frequency. However along with that frequency, the air column vibrates in smaller segments, which (for musical purposes) should be exactly 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5...1/n the wavelength of the fundamental. These sound as contributing pitches and add richness to the fundamental: 1/2 is the octave, 1/3 the twelfth, 1/4 the second octave, etc.

If the bore is not of the correct shape, you get something like 1/1(fundamental), 1/2.1, 1/3.2, 1/4.4...or perhaps 1/1.9, 1/2.8, 1/3.7--the ratios are incorrect and the partials inharmonic in respect to the fundamental.

This works OK in the otsu, where the fundamental predominates. Mistuned partials can even be desirable, giving a complex, "hollow" "woody" tone. Many jinashi flutes have this characteristic to some extent or another.

The problem begins in the kan. When you overblow to the kan, what you are doing is creating a condition where the fundamental is inhibited and the first partial (1/2: the octave) predominates. If the bore creates non-harmonic partials, your kan register will not be in tune with the otsu.

The dai-kan gets even nastier, as it uses a shorter air jet and faster airstream to inhibit the fundamental, first and second partials and so jumps to sounding the third partial (1/4: second octave). Since this partial is weaker than the lower partials, and harder to maintain in a bore optimized for a decent fundamental, it must be close to harmonic to sound at all. If it is not, and is missing in the otsu and kan, that is not a huge problem; its absence will only make the sound a bit less edgy, as the fundamental or first partial predominates. But if you blow so as to inhibit the fundamental and first and second partials and there is no decent third partial, you won't get the note in the dai-kan, no matter how good your embouchure.

There is also a thing called "mode-locking", in which partials that should sound slightly out-of-tune will be pulled into a harmonic relationship with other strong frequencies present. It's a bit like "snap to grid" in a graphics app: if its close, it will jump into place, but after a certain point it will not do so. So there is some "forgiveness" for a bore which normally would create inharmonic partials, but only up to a point.

Now, let's back up a minute. The bore of the shakuhachi is basically a reverse cone, which is certainly not a cylinder, so what gives with that? Essentially, this acts mathematically like a cylinder, however with a modified impedance curve which tends to increase pitch stability with blowing pressure. It stretches the partials somewhat, which helps to offset an acoustic phenomenon whereby blowing harder raises the pitch, making it possible to blow the lower notes harder and upper notes softer and stay in tune. Piccolos are made in two styles: cylindrical and reverse conical, with the former used in bands where volume is needed, and the latter used in orchestras where more control is desirable. Recorders and pre-Boehm simple system flutes also have reverse-conical bores.

So generally, as long as the reverse cone is constant (possibly with a widening at the end to bring the partials of the lowest notes into tune (let's not go into it)), it will act mathematically almost like a cylinder (and actually help compensate some defects of a cylinder under real-world playing conditions), but not if the angle of conicity changes in the main part of the bore. That will create inharmonic partials.

Of course there are small local changes to the cone angle in the bore of all reverse-conical (and conical and even cylindrical instruments), which makers have come up with after long empirical trial-and-error experimenting, and which are necessary to compensate for many factors in actual instruments, such as the extra compliances introduced by side holes, some characteristics of the way the air jet works (in flutes), etc.

There is another factor to consider, apart from generally incorrect bore profiles. There are two important points for any standing wave: 1) a pressure node, where the air molecules do not move, but alternately get compressed and rarefied, and 2) a displacement antinode, where the air molecules move back and forth, but where the pressure does not change. If you constrict the bore at a node, it raises the pitch, but if you constrict it at an antinode, it lowers the pitch. If you widen (instead of constrict) the bore at those points it has the opposite effect.

So perhaps you have a constriction at a certain point that is a node for note A in the kan, but an antinode for kan note B. What happens? Even if your otsu A and B notes are in tune because you have put the fingerholes in the right places, (and that point of perturbation does not lie in a critical point for those otsu notes), the kan note A will be sharp and the kan note B will be flat :-/

So you are dealing with a whole bunch of interactive factors: the overall bore profile, local variations in the bore, and the size and position of the fingerholes, any one of which changes tuning of a given note to some extent, but which affects the partials differently. The main point of the game is to correctly align all factors so that the flute has decent intonation in all three registers, and further has balanced response and timbre as well.

Shakuhachi makers, after a few hundred years of trial and error, have come up with some reasonable bores which behave decently and allow for instruments with adequate intonation and response across the compass of the instrument. There is some wiggle room due to mode locking and other factors--a bit of range in which we can adjust flutes: "fine tune" them, or create our own characteristic response or timbre. Generally, though, the bore profile remains pretty much the same, or the profile is altered across the range--keeping the general cone angle--without large local variations.

Here's an interesting page by Nelson Zink about all this:

http://www.navaching.com/shaku/tuning.html

Because of the complexities of the bore response, and the fact that each note has different critial bore points (a node for one note becoming an antinode for another, and nothing special for still another--and there being extra nodes/antinodes for the partials of a note), there is no good way to mathematically predict what will do what beyond a rough first approximation. Many makers build the same flute over and over again (cast-bore being the most obvious example), and then do only small tweaks. Others have more range, but must be very sensitive to know how to correct the inevitable problems that arise, as variations in the bore of as little as .05 mm can have significant effects. This is where skill and long experience come in, guiding the maker through a sort of intuition in adjusting the bore.

As I am basically just an amateur builder, and do not have this level of expertise, I always try to work from a template: either by trying to duplicate a good flute through measurements, or by following a graph like those presented. If you do not do this then you are wasting decades of valuable experience. It is better not to invent the wheel all over again ;-)

A final point: most earlier instruments and many jinashi flutes were never intended for ensemble playing, and there is not so much concern with all this stuff. With those instruments it is a matter of feel and character, rather than correct frequencies or a perfect kan and dai-kan. I have a number of interesting Asian flutes, including Ifugao nose flutes from the Philippines, and flutes from Papua New Guinea, which have only a few holes and are intended to make nice sounds, but not to play any melodies. There is nothing wrong with shakuhachi in this tradition; they are simply designed for a different purpose. But if your aim is to create instruments that can be played in ensemble and especially with Western instruments, it is pretty much necessary to "follow the rules" of correct bore profiles, and then fine tune afterward using local bore variations and adjustments to the toneholes.

My two cents...or two and a half cents...

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-12-18 06:56:34)

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#24 2008-12-18 05:23:57

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Wow!!!

Nice posts here Toby...really nice...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#25 2008-12-29 04:47:54

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 49

Re: Fine tuning _ one more question

Hi again.
Toby, great thanks for this big piece of the theoretical knowledges and for your own thoughts. I was reading Nelson's pages long time ago, and much things you are talking about are not new for me. But I've got some new things from your last post, thanks again.

The theory knowledge is a thing that helps to unerstand the nature of things that are happens. I can say that I'm understand that all things in shakuhachi are tied together.  The utaguchi, the bore geometry, the bore irregularities and/or additions, the holes and their sizes and big part of it is the person who are blows wink . I know the theory on the level I've read in Nelson's site.

But most value for me haves my own impirical expierience. And just from my own little expierience I can say next. I've made some flutes from non-root bamboo pieces, their bore geometry is close to the cylinder. And I've noticed the tendency that kan is flatter than it should be(20-30 cents). That is the tendency with some irregularities that is created by the every bore originality. I've found the confirmation of the fact in the nelsons page http://www.navaching.com/shaku/second.html. Not so long time ago I've made my first root-end shakuhachi, I've described the situation in my thirst post in the thread. So the main thing there that kan is sharper than it should be. Just some reasonings and bore measureaments and comparisons with the "ideal bore profiles" and some words of Ken La Coss are gived me the idea that the volume of the lower part of the flute's bore is lower than it should be(or if we will say about it in another terms than the angle of conicity is too big[naturally too narrow gorobushi point]). And next is just my little suggestion that if the kan is some sharp we can try to enlarge the lower part volume by sanding. I don't now in what step of making it could be applied, maybe it could be just like a possibility we can use then making goes not by formulas, but then you work "by feel" or "in more organic way" like Ken says.

It is a good approach I think to use the bore profiles that are "work good" in tone balance, responce, and pitch balance. But it seems for me that the magic of bamboo flute is it's natural and unique bore that nature gives to every piece. It is the soul that every piece haves. And the makers objective is just to feel it's soul and to make some little adjustments to correct some things may be to breathe some his soul to the flute smile . It seems that it's close to jinashi flutes conseption. And I do not think that the bamboo flute have to be tuned absolutely, it is the charm of "natural" instrument to be some detuned smile . Even more so we can tune up the notes using mery/kari techniques. And making a precios instrument kills all the magic, just like a plastic flute for me. But I don't want say that precious method is bad, it is very good for good balanced and very well tuned instruments. I'm interrested in honkioku music most, so there is no fast passages, first komuso played this music on a very simple instruments I think. And I don't think they used formulas and huge theories to make their flutes, and it seems ancient makers used their own expierience more then any other things, some masters make their flutes in this key nowadays.

Just my piece of thougts.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-12-29 05:19:15)

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