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#1 2008-11-10 23:55:16

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Grabbing all the right pitches...

I recently did recordings of the pieces I've learned and sent them to my teacher (Chikuzen) for review. One major thing he says I should work on is getting my pitches right (I'm sure you've all heard this thousands of times big_smile  Anyways, I have a little electronic chromatic (Guitar/Bass/Violin) tuner but I'm a little baffled when using it. My formal music training is extremely limited and the fingering charts I've seen always list notes with flats whereas my tuner only shows sharps. (Perhaps there's some simple relationship between the two I'm unaware of.) I also did some reading on the net to try to solve my questions but came up with little help. Mainly,

1) since my principle instrument is a 2.8 (G), what should the other kari notes be?

2) where should the meris and dai meris be? I know that a Tsu dai meri should be equal pitch with a Ro and a kan Ro dai meri should be equal to a Ri, but is this the case for other notes? If not, how does one 'recalculate' the scale for an alternate keyed shakuhachi?

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#2 2008-11-11 01:00:50

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Zakarius wrote:

I recently did recordings of the pieces I've learned and sent them to my teacher (Chikuzen) for review. One major thing he says I should work on is getting my pitches right (I'm sure you've all heard this thousands of times big_smile  Anyways, I have a little electronic chromatic (Guitar/Bass/Violin) tuner but I'm a little baffled when using it. My formal music training is extremely limited and the fingering charts I've seen always list notes with flats whereas my tuner only shows sharps. (Perhaps there's some simple relationship between the two I'm unaware of.) I also did some reading on the net to try to solve my questions but came up with little help. Mainly,

1) since my principle instrument is a 2.8 (G), what should the other kari notes be?

2) where should the meris and dai meris be? I know that a Tsu dai meri should be equal pitch with a Ro and a kan Ro dai meri should be equal to a Ri, but is this the case for other notes? If not, how does one 'recalculate' the scale for an alternate keyed shakuhachi?

Zak

Here's the relationship (starting at F--Ro dai meri--the lowest note on your 2.8, assuming it's in tune, or that you can adjust your tuner a bit up or down):
F, F#, G (Ro), G#=Ab, A, A#=Bb, B, C, C# is Db, D, D#=Eb, E, F, F#,G (Ro-kan), G#=Ab, A, A#=Bb, B, C, C# is Db, D, D#=Eb, E, F, F#, G (Ro-dai kan, or Go no Ha), etc.

So, if you write all the above out, then, just under each note write the kanji for the shakuhachi fingering, thus:
Ro-dai meri, Ro-meri, Ro, Tsu-meri, Tsu-chu meri, Tsu, Re-meri, Re, Ch-meri, Chi, Ri-meri, Ri-chu meri, Ri, Ro-meri, Ro kan, and so on.

You should then be able to relate the played notes to your tuner. I think...

What I did (in terms of 'recalculating') is find the 'Ro' pitch for your flute--in this case G--and then work chromatically (one half-step, or semitone) up from that (or down a bit, in re. the Ro-meri & Ro-dai meri) using a fingering chart, then just did the same thing with the kanji, starting with Ro on the G.

Hope this makes sense. You can email me if you want more blabbering  'o)

Last edited by edosan (2008-11-11 01:47:56)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2008-11-11 01:05:10

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Zak,
Your G flute should play G-Bb-C-D-F as ro-tsu-re-chi-ri
running from ro in meri/kari it should be:
ro(G), tsunomeri(Ab/G#), tsunochunomeri(A), tsu(Bb), renomeri(B), re(C), chinomeri(Db/C#), chi(D), rinomeri(Eb/D#), rinochunomeri(E), ri(F), ronomeri(Gb/F#)
Of course these should correspond to the same notes in the kan register and in the daikan register.  If you are reading Kinko/Chikuyusha then ri = hi in kan, ro = ha, tsunomeri = sannoha, tsunochunomeri = yonnoha
Hope that helps out a bit.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#4 2008-11-11 01:43:49

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Zakarius wrote:

I recently did recordings of the pieces I've learned and sent them to my teacher (Chikuzen) for review. One major thing he says I should work on is getting my pitches right (I'm sure you've all heard this thousands of times big_smile  Anyways, I have a little electronic chromatic (Guitar/Bass/Violin) tuner but I'm a little baffled when using it.

I think a better way to proceed would be to:

1. Find an in-tune piano (or a more portable in-tune instrument--even a small synth would serve).

2. Record all the pertinent pitches, starting with F below middle C, playing chromatically up as high as necessary to get up into the third (dai kan)
octave. Also record a chromatic ascending scale starting with Ro (not Ro-dai meri). To make it more interesting, record a descending scale starting
with Go no Ha (first note of third octave--two octaves above Ro-otsu).

3. Play the (recorded) notes in a slow, even, measured tempo. Much better to have something to listen to and emulate than search around on a tuner.

4. Work with this recording until you have a good sense of what the chromatic intervals 'sound' like. You want to develop a sense of how the change in
pitch relates to the fingerings and change in head position. This is much more laborious and difficult to do with a tuner. If, after you can stay in tune
with the piano recording, you want to use the tuner to check your pitch, fine.

5. Be sure to use the equivalents between Ro-dai meri and Ri, Tsu-dai meri and Ro, and any other ones you can come up with to cross-check your pitch.

6. Play lots of non-chromatic intervals, AND play some music other than Honkyoku--music for which you know the pitches. Mary Had a Little Lamb, or similar smile.  I know that may be distasteful to you, but it works.

Last edited by edosan (2008-11-11 01:45:35)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2008-11-11 04:01:20

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Thanks to Ed and Jeff for the excellent replies. I had no idea that Ab and G# were the same -- I thought G# was lower than Ab and that's what was really confusing me. Thanks also for the tips on the scale & pitch practicing. With your clear responses, I'm pretty sure I can make the scale for my D# 3.3 now, as well. <sigh of relief>

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#6 2008-11-11 04:28:54

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

A very handy program to me is 'auto tuner', found here: http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
halfway the page, you can set the basenote of your flute, say G or whatever and play to a mic in your computer. So you can see how high or low you play the note and which it is. You can do this by changing key (right bottom), so set it to D# for your 3.3 and practice.
good luck!


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#7 2008-11-11 22:33:15

udo.jeromin
Member
Registered: 2007-05-07
Posts: 72

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Hi Zak,

I would have some doubts that your teacher considers the pitches of
an electronic tuner as "correct".  Shakuhachi is an instrument that
is capable of producing any pitch and what is "correct" may depend
on your teacher or the sort of music you play (the modern western
scale is a rather poor approximation of what anyone would consider
as "correct" I think).

Perhaps better to ask your teacher for recordings of the pieces you
play and to trust your (and your teacher's) ears.

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#8 2008-11-12 00:07:39

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

udo.jeromin wrote:

(the modern western
scale is a rather poor approximation of what anyone would consider
as "correct" I think).

Perhaps better to ask your teacher for recordings of the pieces you
play and to trust your (and your teacher's) ears.

I disagree. While it is true that the particular idiosyncracies of different kinds of music should be learned, it is also true that if one can hear
and play a western scale (or any scale) consistently and repeatedly, one can modify the pitches to emulate any scale. First you've got to
have a baseline to start from, and work with, to get control of the flute, and the western scale is as good as any if your teacher isn't handy any
old time.  If all one ever studied was what was in a particular teacher's music, one would be quite limited indeed.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2008-11-12 00:44:45

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

One major difficulty for me is that it sounds like the right note when I'm playing but when listening to my recording I can't help but wonder, "was that me?!" Thus having something to gauge my accuracy with seems something of a necessity. I wonder if other people have had the same experience of not being able to really hear the sounds you make. (When I was a kid, I had to go through speech therapy because I couldn't produce proper 'R' sounds -- when I spoke, they sounded just like everyone else and yet I was amazed when my speech therapist recorded and played it back -- all 'W' sounds!)

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#10 2008-11-12 03:39:23

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Zak, you say your flute is a G flute. Is it really G when you play it in a good but relaxed kari position?
If it is, are the other kari notes when played in a good stable and relaxed kari position tuned to Bb-C-D-F?

If you have no formal music training before, it can be hard to know what is "right" and what is "wrong". But I think the fundamental in shakuhachi playing is first of all to get the fixed notes "right". The fixed notes are the kari notes, and they are no more fixed than what is relative to your flute. But once you have established where the kari notes are on your flute, they are fixed (there is much more to this, but it is a good rule to start out with). The infixed are the meri notes. They vary according to the direction of the music.

I think a tuner is a good device when you need to learn to be stable. But it only works when your flute is in tune with or at least very close to Western equal temperament. If not it is too much to be keeping an eye with if all the notes are 25 cents flat or the like.
If your flute is close to equal temperament but not totally in tune with itself, you would have to adjust to be in tune. This is more work, but can be done, but you should be aware of that you can't play exactly like that on all flutes.

See if your tuner shows more or less green when playing your kari notes. If it does. Good!
That is then the position of your head you need to have basically all the time when playing kari (again there is more to the story, but this is a good rule in the beginning). You need to be aware that your head has to return to this position each time you move from a meri note to a kari note - also when it is in fast passages.
Later on you can learn to be efficient with the movements (which makes you faster) but for now you have to do head movements to be in control of the pitch.
You probably know all this about head movements etc, but very often it is hard for players to return to the "same pitch level" as before - especially when they haven't had musical training earlier.

What really surprises you when you hear yourself playing is probably the inaccuracy of your meri notes. However, if you do not have a stable kari, your meri will be all over - or it would sound like it is all over. If you play ro too flat and you play tsu no meri right after in the pitch it should be on your flute, it would not sound right because your kari note preceding was flat and therefore the interval between the two notes not correct. It is after all the intervals that are the most important in shakuhachi music and not perfect pitch.

My advice to you is to work on the kari notes and then once they are stable you can begin working on the real problem baby, the meri notes. You can't play good meri notes against kari notes that varies all the time depending on whether you have just played meri or kari.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#11 2008-11-12 09:10:08

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Thanks for the reply Kiku. The flute is one of Perry's higher-end ones and therefore the kari notes are all pretty much not only in tune with itself but also with the equal temperment scale. Some of the notes go a little flat in the kan octave -- is this more common on longer flutes (perhaps affected by the bore to length aspect ratio) or the defective player?

Zak

Last edited by Zakarius (2008-11-12 09:14:30)


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#12 2008-11-13 01:57:45

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Zakarius wrote:

Thanks for the reply Kiku. The flute is one of Perry's higher-end ones and therefore the kari notes are all pretty much not only in tune with itself but also with the equal temperment scale. Some of the notes go a little flat in the kan octave -- is this more common on longer flutes (perhaps affected by the bore to length aspect ratio) or the defective player?

Zak

Good, I am glad you have a good flute to work with.
If the flute is flat on higher notes, it is probably a question of breath control. You are probably still producing high notes by meri'ing a little, which in the beginning is easier for most of us.
According to physics the high notes should get sharper, unless the maker has compensated for it, which I have no doubt that Perry has done. smile
Good luck with it !


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#13 2008-11-14 11:50:31

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

Hey Zak, Sorry for the slow reply. Been a little "tuned-out" smile

Your 2.8 CHIKUSING is a wide bore Jinashi style flute. These favor the lower octave but still work relatively well across all the advanced fingerings and ornamentations. These kinds of flutes may require one to work a little more on the top of the second and into the third octaves. This, of course, is not limited to wide bore flutes. Many shakuhachi are more difficult to play in tune up there.  Yours can play in tune, you may have to Kari a little more. Again, that depends upon the level of your blowing skill.

Kiku wrote:

According to physics the high notes should get sharper, unless the maker has compensated for it, , which I have no doubt that Perry has done. smile

Yes Kiku, I Spot Tune on my  CHIKUSING to create balance and response. Zak, if you look into the bore, you will see near the top where I applied Ji to make Hi Go and the Ha notes work better. It's always a balance dictated by how the flute feels when playing a piece of music. In your case, I played a lot of Dokyoku pieces on it while tuning. I loved the way your flute handles Muriaki and Kome Buki and sometimes making the top end work better reduces the bore at the top, which can adversely affect how quickly the flute can take a blast or air. I always hope that the new owners of my instruments will get to know the them better than I.

As for Kiku's physics theory: I think this can be true for many older Jinashi flutes. My theory on that is that the sharp Chi forces the #4 and #5 holes to be placed higher thus making them sharper in Kan. Modern makers who are drilling #3 lower may not have that issue.

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#14 2008-11-17 23:31:23

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Grabbing all the right pitches...

I am definitely not a "pro" but my experience as someone on the journey may help reinforce the good responses you have already received.

I have a couple of Perry Yung flutes and a couple of others.  I use an electronic tuner for my first 30 minutes of daily practice (long notes) then I put it away while I work on pieces.

My tendency is to play kari flat, probably because it is easier.  If I don't start with the tuner, I sometimes think I am on pitch when I am not.  The tuner forces me to get the right angle of attack.  With continual practice, I now hit closer to the right pitch even if I don't have the tuner around.

Secondly, the tuner helps me hear the relativities between notes and ensures that I have a stable scale in my head when I get to the meri notes.  As someone already pointed out, the japanese scales are not necessarily the exact same as the Western well-tempered scale that most tuners follow.  However, I think you need to have a point of reference, and the Western scale works fine for that.  Once you have learned some pieces and heard them played several times by masters, my experience is that you will start to absorb the idiomatic aspects of the music, including the pitches for the "special" notes, and you won't need the tuner so much.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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