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Hi everybody,
what is the difference between kyoku, sugagaki and shirabe pieces? What other types of pieces exist? Do 'jishi" pieces exist as a separate group? Perhaps it was discussed somewhere but I didn't find
Thanks a lot!
E.
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kyoku 虛空
sugagaki (巢籠×) sorry , i made a mistake , sugagaki is 菅垣
shirabe 調子
shiji? 獅子 ? i dont think shiji is a separate one , there is azuma shiji 吾妻獅子 komoi jishi 云井獅子
Last edited by chattemao (2009-10-08 01:09:23)
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Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?
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Yu-Jin wrote:
Hi everybody,
what is the difference between kyoku, sugagaki and shirabe pieces? What other types of pieces exist? Do 'jishi" pieces exist as a separate group? Perhaps it was discussed somewhere but I didn't find
Thanks a lot!
E.
Found in the forum search engine using 'sugagaki':
Sugagaki The term Sugagaki, when used in Shakuhachi music, simply means pieces which are unrelated to the Fuke legend. The term Sugagaki also refers to a technique used in solo Koto music without voice.
Here's the thread:
http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=23101
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Also, from komuso.com (via John Singer, who has a lot of historical material on his site):
"The original meaning of the term "Sugagaki" was to play stringed instruments without voice. Numerous Shakuhachi pieces have "Sugagaki" attached to their names as a suffix such as "Akita Sugagaki" and "Sanya Sugagaki". Shakuhachi pieces having this suffix attached to them originated from stringed instrument (Koto and Shamisen) music."
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Komuso.com has a good search engine, and a vast amount of information on it. Always a good idea to have a look there prior to bringing a question like this to the forum.
For example, if you enter 'jishi' into the search field, you'll get many pages of 'jishi' related stuff, and if you select the link 'Kumoi Jishi' you'll get this big fat page:
http://www.komuso.com/pieces/Kumoi_Jishi.html
Same goes for 'kyoku' and 'shirabe'.
Last edited by edosan (2009-10-07 22:06:28)
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Yu-Jin wrote:
Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?
there are lots of Kyoku versions and XXX sugagaki . i have never think about the question you asked . to me , Kyoku is Kyoku .
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edosan, chattemao
Thank you
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Yu-Jin wrote:
Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?
For myself, I think it's pretty fruitless to try to sort out the mysteries of Japanese naming systems--assuming there even IS a coherent system. Just play the pieces you enjoy, and let the names fall where they may. Kyoku just means 'song', or 'piece of music', so it could be attached to nearly anything except old honkyoku. The 'jishi' pieces are more melodic and measured, and the 'sugagaki' pieces seem to emanate from the koto tradition. Some of them are more melodic and measured as well (Sanya Sugagaki, for example). The lines don't seem to be very sharp.
During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?
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edosan wrote:
During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?
Hi Ed
Any ideas how I can get hold of that paper?
Thanks
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Justin wrote:
edosan wrote:
During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?
Hi Ed
Any ideas how I can get hold of that paper?
Thanks
[See, even Japanese-speaking Justin-san wants to know WTF a sugagaki is ]
I have devoted some search energy to finding it without result, Justin. I will try to find out the author's name from a friend who was present at the festival in Boulder.
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