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#1 2009-12-30 11:52:50

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Urushi Rash Treatments

Hi All, Hope you are enjoying the holidays. I am!

I am starting this thread because quite a bit of flutes recently came in for repair requiring Japanese urushi lacquer and I want to make sure the owners have solid information on treatments in case they have an allergic reaction to the urushi.

Since 2003, I've made, repaired and refurbished hundreds of flutes using urushi. And since that time I have had about a hand full of people report that they had developed the rash. I always offer cautionary information but the main reason I am writing here is to ask those who have had the rash how long it lasted and what treatments they found effective.

In my attempt to "keep it real", I am kindly requesting that only those who have had first hand experience reply to this thread.

My urushi rash experience: I can play a freshly urushied flute within two hours of the lacquer kicking over (do not try this at home). But I did have an allergic reaction twice. They happened during the application process. These rashes came from the urushiol gas landing on exposed skin, not direct contact with the lacquer itself. It took a day before the itch and bumps showed up. I didn't do anything the first time and it took over a week for the rash to subside. It was mild. When it happened the second time, I gently scrubbed the area with anti-bacterial dish washing liquid and used Cortaid Anti-rash Cream. The rash was healing within three days and gone in a week.

Anyone else with an urushi scar and story to tell?


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#2 2009-12-30 13:36:27

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

I am VERY allergic to urushi, as is my wife. My first experience with "Urushi rash" was with a jinashi that Ken made and coated the exterior with urushi at my request. Little did I know that urushi is related to poison ivy, to which we are both also allergic. I played the new shakuhachi, then we made love. Our dermatologist dined out on the resulting story for years. We had blistering crusty rash everywhere...perfect hand prints in her case!

I have since been able to play one shakuhachi with urushi in the bore...a lovely 1.8 Chikusing made for me by Perry. It took over two years of curing before I was able to play it.

I have used both "tecnu" and "Cortaid Poison Ivy Care" cloths to prevent the rash and wash known urushi flute bores. It works well to prevent rash if you know you have been exposed and use it quickly. They do not seem to help prevent rash when I use them on urushi in the bore or shakuhachi exterior. It seems that only a damp box and lots of time help with that...in my case several years.

Once I have the rash, the only thing that seems to help me is steroids. I have to use prescription strength cream and oral tablets due to my extreme sensitivity but over the counter steroid cream might help others who are less sensitive. For me the rash blisters and oozes fluid...very nasty, very painful..and takes weeks to disappear.

If you know you are allergic to poison ivy/urushi...stay away from it! If you don't know/aren't sure...wash the effected area...usually under your lower lip...with tecnu or Cortaid Poison Ivy cloths at the first sign of irritation, burning, rash and apply over the counter steroid cream. If that does not work go see your doctor, you will probably need prescription strength steroids.

Again, if you know you are allergic to urushi or poison ivy, stay away from it!


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#3 2009-12-30 18:06:53

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

jamesnyman wrote:

. I played the new shakuhachi, then we made love.

!

TMI! roll wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#4 2009-12-31 05:56:16

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

jamesnyman, that is a terrible story!
Worth keeping in mind! smile
When I did the last fieldwork looking at the development of the construction of jinashi shakuhachi I developed an urushi rash as I looked through too many newly made flutes with urushi - which made me have one big red and blue eye - as if someone had hit me. So I agree with your warning. I have been sensitive to urushi ever since.
With a fairly new flute I needed to play on that made me have a rash, I wiped it with some poison ivy wipes that Perry sent me before I played and I wiped my chin and hands afterwards. I think it did help.... but then I am not one of the most allergic persons...

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-12-31 07:02:09)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#5 2009-12-31 07:00:28

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

I used to get rash from poison ivy when I was younger and playing in the woods. sad Perhaps I better not get an urushi flute. sad sad


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#6 2009-12-31 07:04:05

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

purehappiness wrote:

I used to get rash from poison ivy when I was younger and playing in the woods. sad Perhaps I better not get an urushi flute. sad sad

As long as it is old and cured enough - it should be ok... That is anyway what I have heard. But since jamesnyman writes that he has only been able to play one flute with urushi since.... perhaps some people are just extremely sensitive.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#7 2009-12-31 08:36:11

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

purehappiness wrote:

I used to get rash from poison ivy when I was younger and playing in the woods. sad Perhaps I better not get an urushi flute. sad sad

i get poison ivy quite easily, though not too badly- pretty much every time i work in the yard i get a few blisters...
recently played my main flute with new urushi at the chin, and a new self-made with a full bore of new urushi cured only less than a week, and nothing happened.... so i think you have to just try playing with fresh urushi to find out.

i have no idea, but wonder whether homeopathic rhus tox would help with urushi, as it does with poison ivy?。。。just googled rhus tox and the kanji for urushi, came up with at least one source mentioning  漆かぶれ.or urushi poisoning...anyone ever try it?


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

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#8 2009-12-31 08:41:38

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

There is hope! smile I will, someday, when I can afford it, try and maybe get an urushi flute. I am hoping. Of course, it has been years since I have had a poison ivy rash but I don't play in the woods half as much anymore.
Experience is the best teacher.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#9 2009-12-31 11:04:08

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Found some other first hand Urushi Rash experience through the unique technique of Edosan's Search Ryu:

From several old threads but mainly this one around 2008-01-09:
http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 787#p12787

Seth wrote:

I have had severe urushi reactions to new flutes.
I have found that if I give a quick wash to the new flute in technu oil (an anti-poison ivy oil cleaner) that can pretty much resolve the problem.
For the two flutes I did this with I did not experience any cracking or other issues to the flutes.  But of course introducing a lot of moisture to a flute always entails a risk.
I also make it a practice to wash my hands with tecnu after practicing for the first few weeks with a new flute.

Scrambles wrote:

It's been a few more weeks now and I last got the rash on my chin, upper lip and left forearm (!?), from playing about a week ago.  The rash is virtually gone now, so it's not lasting as long it seems.  Still, I don't want to pick it up again and get another rash...it's not debilitating or painful anymore, but it is quite annoying!
I used Cortaid poison ivy wipes on the flute before I played, then again on my lips and hands after playing for about 10 minutes.  I still got a rash obviously, although I suspect the wipes may have lessened the severity.

...About 3 weeks ago I also used a bleach solution to wash the inside and outside of my flute, and it seems to have reduced the rash considerably - but it has not eliminated it.  It really did make a drastic difference, though.

mrosenlof wrote:

Take this with good healthy skepticism, but I am under the impression that warmth and humidity are both important factors in how fast the urushi cures.  I really have no idea if the irritant vaporises or if it cures into an inert substance, but it does on of those.
Here's the purely anecdotal evidence:  My new flute kept causing reactions for much longer than the seller thought it should.  I had not reacted to any other flutes, and I was keeping mine humid, but in a relatively cool basement.  A long shakuhachi camp weekend, with the flute still humidified by either playing about six hours per day or storage with a dampit, ***and temperatures at 90 (F) and above*** ended my reactions, and I have been rash-free since then.

JeffMArtindale wrote:

I have reacted with rash on a couple of relatively new flutes. Left a nice red spot on the chin for awhile. I actually washed the inside of the flute with soap and water. I then stored the flute in high humidity within a bag. Eventually, the flute was free of causing the rash. Of course, had to play the flute before fully cured. So, I would use alcohol swabs to clean the outside of the bamboo touching my chin. I was also careful to wash my face and hands after playing. Just some thoughts.  All the best, Jeff

peteross wrote:

I have had some success with Quercetin.  It's a food supplement for people with allergies, available at most health food stores..  I took it for one week twice a day, and was able to play several flutes without reaction for the first time in one year.  We're all different, but, you might give this a try.....

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-12-31 11:20:57)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#10 2009-12-31 11:16:19

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Glad to hear you are now able to play the Chikusing James.

Tairaku wrote:

jamesnyman wrote:

. I played the new shakuhachi, then we made love.

!

TMI! roll wink

I do make it a point to change my cloths after using urushi as the urushiol gas can cling to clothing.
Either we've been lucky so far or my children and partner are not sensitive to urushi.

Kiku Day wrote:

... I have been sensitive to urushi ever since. With a fairly new flute I needed to play on that made me have a rash, I wiped it with some poison ivy wipes that Perry sent me before I played and I wiped my chin and hands afterwards. I think it did help...

The product - CORTAID® Poison Ivy Care Toxin Removal Cloths purchased from CVS. They came in small handy, resealable packs. http://www.cortaid.com/prod_ivy_toxin_removal.jsp
I'm glad they worked for you Kiku.

Thanks for the responses!

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-12-31 11:17:48)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#11 2009-12-31 11:28:37

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Rashes like this are called "contact dermatitis."  You can get it from plants like poison ivy, poison oak, poison sumack, and even mango skin.  Other folks get it from touching certain metals.  I think the urushi is likely a combination of plant compounds.  I used to get very severe reactions to the poison ivy and other plants, but it has stopped happening as I have aged, although now I cannot peel mangos as my hands explode in a rash.  It is possible to develop and lose allergies like this, so that is a ray of hope for some.  Benedril was always helpful for me in both pill and cream forms.  Still, I think the key here is that when you get a reaction from poison plant oils (which are what cause poison ivy) you have come into contact with the oil and probably washed it off by the time the rash starts, usually about 24 hours after the contact.  I am not sure what therapies would work if you are in constant or at least usual contact with the offensive substance, such as practicing on your rash causing flute each day.  As was mentioned, as the coating cures, these oils leave the coating and the rash would then stop.  Until then, the only thing that I can think of that would really solve the issue would be a physical barrier between the offensive iol and your skin, maybe a thin coating of vaseline or other jellylike stuff either on the top of the flute or on your chin.  Not sure how that would affect playing though.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#12 2009-12-31 12:42:50

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Here's a Google search result for the string 'urushiol sumac', which has heaps of info on causes and descriptions of the urushiol reaction, as well as some palliatives. One in particular, Zanfel Wash, though a bit pricey, seems worth looking into for some (not all) sufferers, there are quite a few reviews of the product.

http://www.google.com/search?q=urushiol … =firefox-a

(Don't know if it'll work from browsers other than Firefox)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#13 2009-12-31 13:07:21

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Prednesome (sp?) is often prescribed for this as well.  It is a steroid that causes teh rash to be far more short lived.

I'll never forget when I used to run a chainsaw for a living.  My operator had grubbed and thrown down a massive oak, probably about 6 feet radius.  It and the couple of dozen pines laid out next to it were full of poison ivy.  I walked over to cut them into logs, saw it and walked back to my boss and said, "I can cut those today, but I won't be coming in tomorrow or the next day if I do."  "Get to cutting," he said.  There is nothing like a chainsaw to atomize the ivy oil and spray it all over you.  I avoided as much as I could and cut out logs for the rest of the day.  The next morning it looked like I had elephantits of the arm.  It was literally three or four times its usual size.  It was looking bad, but the steroid had it back to working order in about 2 or 3 days.  I was exempt from any environmental destruction that involved poison ivy after that.

Last edited by lowonthetotem (2010-01-04 09:51:30)


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#14 2010-01-03 08:53:43

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Urushi Rash Treatments

Thank you all for sharing!


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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