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#1 2010-01-16 09:01:46

Bas Nijenhuis
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From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
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Shakuhachi length and type of music

Reading posts in this forum -and from stage performances- I noticed that musicians play different length of flutes. I know that length makes a difference in playing and sound. Getting difference sizes of flutes myself during the time was making me wonder: what length of flutes are most suited for specific type of music? I know 1.8 is most common, and I know you can play Honkyoku on 1.6 or Minyo on a 2.8, but I am asking for stereotypes here: what flute-length do you think is best for which music? And if need be, you can also state what kind of flute fits best (but that is quite a dangerous topic I guess).

Bas


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#2 2010-01-16 12:07:19

Zakarius
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From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

I realize that most people here on the forum will disagree with me, but I say: the longer, the better. I'd play everything I've learned on my 3.3 if I were able to do with sufficient technical ability... sadly, a lot of faster fingerings make that impossible. My 2.9 seems to be a length which I can play and not have to worry about physical constraints in technique.

More experienced players with a handful of flutes will probably answer by saying that they prefer certain flutes for specific pieces -- it may have to do with the length of the flute (especially when it comes to difficult pieces or slow ones which seem to 'fit' better with resounding flutes)... but I've been told that various pieces just 'fit' various flutes for their tone quality.

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#3 2010-01-16 12:55:27

airin
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Good question Bas, I'm really interested in this flute length question as well.  And dare I throw in the jinashi vs jiari aspect to this query?

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#4 2010-01-16 13:24:30

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

airin wrote:

And dare I throw in the jinashi vs jiari aspect to this query?

At your peril smile

This question has come up and been discussed back in the dim mists of Forum time, but I can't come up with the
material without further digging. At any rate, it's hardly a hard and fast delineation, and I think Zak's summary is
about as good as any, at least for Honkyoku.

Minyo is usually played on shorter flutes (1.8, 1.6, 1.4), with some exceptions.

Sankyoku is usually played on 1.8 or 1.6 (jiari).

Jiari/Jinashi I'm not going anywhere near...

Last edited by edosan (2010-01-16 13:29:02)


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It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
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#5 2010-01-16 16:46:07

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Hi,

from my limited expirence I can tell you what I have learned. My teacher usually just teach on 2.0 or longer jinashis and they are often wide bore. We learn some "old" pieces in myoan style also this school is very breath related. When my teacher plays in public  together with some other instruments he usually uses a 1.8.

The flute his sensei gave to him for study is also a old longer jinashi with a wider bore.


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#6 2010-01-16 16:58:08

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

edosan wrote:

Jiari/Jinashi I'm not going anywhere near...

Whassamatta? You afraid? wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2010-01-16 17:18:48

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Generalizations and exceptions:

Kinko: Sankyoku and honkyoku are played on 1.8.

But if you want to you can play the honkyoku on any length and it's not unusual to play sankyoku on 1.9, you just get the koto or shamisen to tune to you. There are also certain pieces which specify other lengths such as 1.6 or 2.0. And some duets call for 1.8 and 2.0 or 1.8 and 2.4 for example.

Does not matter if the flutes are jiari or jinashi as long as they are good flutes that can play Kinko music.

Tozan:similar story to Kinko. Usually they play jiari.

Myoan: 1.8 is also the standard length but solo playing takes place on any length of instrument. There are also certain branches (Tani-ha for example) who usually use 2.6.

Some are jinashi fundamentalists. Most Myoan players use jinashi or jimori. But there are some jiari Myoan flutes and there are a lot of Myoan players who will play a nice jiari Kinko flute.

Yokoyama style: Use 1.8 for the Kinko and Fukuda Rando portion of their repertoire. Some of the Rando ensemble pieces call for various lengths. The songs they got from Watazumi are usually played on longer flutes. It doesn't matter whether the flutes are jiari or jinashi as long as they play the music. Usually their 1.8's are jiari and the longer flutes could be either jiari or jinashi.

Nezasaha, or Kinpu Ryu: Usually played on 2.0. But you can play them on any length. Urajoshi versions are played on 1.5 if in duet with a 2.0 but if you play them as solo pieces any length.

Minyo players don't care what length they play. They carry around a bunch of flutes so they can get in tune with the instruments and singers around them.

But in the end good players just do whatever they want on whichever flute they like.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#8 2010-01-16 17:56:23

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Tairaku wrote:

But in the end good players just do whatever they want on whichever flute they like.

I don't think I agree with this unless you preface this with understanding that all "good players" came thru a system first, no matter what system, be it Meian, Kinko, Tozan or toilet paper roll ryu, jinashi jiari, whatever. Including Yokoyama and Watazumi. And you have to stress the importance of your words, "in the end", which means after they had learned the "traditional" way of doing things. Then they built something on top of it, so to speak, themselves.

We all "learn" or "acquire" certain aesthetics along the way when we study shakuhachi.  What Eddy and Tairaku say goes across the board in general about those size flutes being used for those types of music. In the big picture, the larger number of people enjoy the music when it's played on those sized flutes. That's what we get used to hearing and because of the long history of these songs, it works out that they sound very nice on these sized flutes. People playing them for a long time means that they come to us at this time in history developed and polished by all the efforts of human being shakuhachi players so far. It's easy to step out of this "flow" of the development of the song and play it differently than the "normal" way. You could, like Zakarius, play a modern piece, such as "Makiri" on a 2.9.  One would look like a renegade or at least seem different, but in the end, you have to be satisfied with what you are producing. Zak may not get an adoring audience by playing the song on such a large flute, but I don't think that's his goal. Everyone wants some appreciation for their work a bit but if it's far out of the mainstream one can't expect it. Some people get off on this too. Not being appreciated makes some people feel superior in that they are not following the mainstream way of doing things. That can be easier to do than following it. So often it's not close to any "well earned recognition". It's often a mixture of ego and imagination. But, than again, being true to yourself and your own inclinations is extremely worthwhile, to say the least. I know that Zak works extremely hard to be able to play these songs on his long flutes. Normally, I don't agree to teach someone who only wants to play long flutes. I usually teach them on the shorter flutes and have them translate that to the longer ones. However, Zak practices his long flutes about 4 hr. a day, and only plays the long flutes. I believe that also because he is sequestered away in Taiwan from any busy mainstream shakuhachi he's not influenced as much, or maybe not pressured as much to do the status quo. Once I realized that he was putting so much time into playing any song on a longer flute (and also that he wasn't going to switch to a shorter one no matter what) I thought it would be a very interesting trip. It's working out for him. It wouldn't work well though if one couldn't invest the time in practice. It actually would sound pretty bad. If one only had 30 minutes a day to learn Tsuru No Sugomori on a 2.9, I wouldn't be interested in being part of it cause it would never happen in any form that I could make sense of.  However, in Zak's case, he doesn't call what he's doing "traditional shakuhachi" and neither do I. His energy just works better at the longer sound range. The way Zak reacts to shorter flutes (hands over ears) is how some players react to jiari or jinashi. So that argument is not even an argument. If you like the way the song sounds on jinashi, then play it on jinashi, and vice versa. Or if you're just into one more than the other, then do it. And be satisfied. But don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with you all the time.

Last edited by chikuzen (2010-01-16 18:07:17)


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#9 2010-01-16 18:59:33

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

chikuzen wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

But in the end good players just do whatever they want on whichever flute they like.

I don't think I agree with this unless you preface this with understanding that all "good players" came thru a system first, no matter what system, be it Meian, Kinko, Tozan or toilet paper roll ryu, jinashi jiari, whatever. Including Yokoyama and Watazumi. And you have to stress the importance of your words, "in the end", which means after they had learned the "traditional" way of doing things. Then they built something on top of it, so to speak, themselves.

.

That's why I said "in the end" because regardless of what our training is after we go through it we might decide to discard or modify it. Last night I saw a great, highly trained saxophonist blowing with a rubber tube on his sax where the mouthpiece usually goes. He must have decided a reed wasn't enough, at least at that particular moment.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#10 2010-01-16 22:20:17

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Hi Bas
Fashions change. Shakuhachi over 2.3 were basically nonexistant (with very few exceptions) in the Edo period.
2.1 was common for Oshu area pieces (Oshu Reibo, Oshu Sanya etc). 2.0 was common (but not exclusive) for Nezasa-ha (Kimpu-ryu).

[Started writing this yesterday before going out. Now that I'm back Brian has given a detailed reply but I may as well finish this post]

Kinko-ryu sankyoku uses usually 1.8 but 1.7, 1.9 and 2.0 are also used. This depends on the piece due to the range of vocal melody, and also depends on the singer and their vocal range. I'm not sure that 1.6 is ever used in sankyoku. In newer music, a greater variety of lengths is used.

Kinko-ryu honkyoku nowadays usually uses 1.8 but other lengths were in use in the Edo period, such as 1.6, 1.7, 1.9, 2.0, rarely 2.1, and occasionally smaller such as 1.3 and even 1.0 may have been used.

Seien-ryu standard length for honkyoku is 1.9. Some other lengths sometimes used such as 1.8, 2.0 and rarely up to 2.1.

Longer than 2.3 is basically a modern innovation. This has become popular for some modern music and in some honkyoku schools as Brian pointed out with Tani-ha using 2.6 as standard and often using even up to 3.0 or as long as they can manage. Yokoyama Katsuya's school commonly play 2.4 and 2.7 as standard lengths, as well as 1.8 and 2.1. There are generally not set lengths for the different pieces in Yokoyama's school of honkyoku but some pieces may be seen to suit a shorter or longer range of sizes.

Changing the size of shakuhachi for a piece can change the character of the piece, so much so that the result may not be accepted as the same piece. Ajikan for example, was changed dramatically by Tani Kyochiku when he used a longer shakuhachi and a slower style of playing more suited to his instrument and there are people even today who do not consider that Ajikan as the "real" or "correct" Ajikan. So the size can effect the nature of the music itself. I don't know how the longer shakuhachi were received at first, but by now it is quite accepted (in some circles at least) to play many pieces on longer shakuhachi.

It may also be interesting to note that the longer shakuhachi are often thought of as more "spiritual", but in fact have arisen after shakuhachi has been secularized, whereas when shakuhachi was the religious tool of the komuso monks, shorter shakuhachi were the standard.

Last edited by Justin (2010-01-16 22:25:44)

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#11 2010-01-17 03:34:01

Bas Nijenhuis
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From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Very interesting! Thanks for that information, so it is part of the tradition to play and learn on the shorter and common ones, say 1.8 and another part is of individualism, like Chikuzen wrote about Zak: personal preferance. It is more complex then I thought and perhaps it is not complex at all: play what you like. But that statement doesn't fit really well if you honour the tradition.
Sometimes I've also read about length: ... 1.x or 2.x is an obscure length. Maybe this is true in the perspective of shakuhachi history? And not so seen from an individual view.
And it is also interesting whay Justing says about the "spiritual". Longer has perhaps a stronger association with spiritual, maybe the deeper tones are even more in harmony with our bodies?? I feel all of the lengths can be spiritual if the player commits to the song and puts in effort...


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
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#12 2010-01-17 07:52:40

Thomas
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From: New York City
Registered: 2006-04-21
Posts: 81

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Justin wrote:

It may also be interesting to note that the longer shakuhachi are often thought of as more "spiritual", but in fact have arisen after shakuhachi has been secularized, whereas when shakuhachi was the religious tool of the komuso monks, shorter shakuhachi were the standard.

This is VERY interesting to consider.

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#13 2010-01-17 07:56:24

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Thomas wrote:

Justin wrote:

It may also be interesting to note that the longer shakuhachi are often thought of as more "spiritual", but in fact have arisen after shakuhachi has been secularized, whereas when shakuhachi was the religious tool of the komuso monks, shorter shakuhachi were the standard.

This is VERY interesting to consider.

People were smaller then.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#14 2010-01-17 08:00:15

Justin
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From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

And it is also interesting whay Justin says about the "spiritual". Longer has perhaps a stronger association with spiritual, maybe the deeper tones are even more in harmony with our bodies?? I feel all of the lengths can be spiritual if the player commits to the song and puts in effort...

Hi Bas
I was not saying that the longer shakuhachi (or their sounds) are necessarily more spiritual. I just thought that it was interesting that they (or their sound) are often regarded as more spiritual in modern times, and how that contrasts with the historical context, that when shakuhachi was actually used by religious renunciates (komuso monks), "short" (e.g. 1.7, 1.8) were normal, and now that shakuhachi is played by "lay people" i.e. non-renunciates, longer ones become common. I'm not trying to say anything in particular with this but I find it interesting to contemplate. One might question whether what the renunciate komuso community found to be "spiritual" may be different from what the contemporary more or less secular society finds "spiritual". This can similarly apply to certain playing styles and the changing perception of what is or is not "suizen" (which is in itself a new post-Fuke sect term.)

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#15 2010-01-17 08:01:36

Justin
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From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Tairaku wrote:

Thomas wrote:

Justin wrote:

It may also be interesting to note that the longer shakuhachi are often thought of as more "spiritual", but in fact have arisen after shakuhachi has been secularized, whereas when shakuhachi was the religious tool of the komuso monks, shorter shakuhachi were the standard.

This is VERY interesting to consider.

People were smaller then.

lol lol lol

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#16 2010-01-17 08:18:17

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Justin wrote:

It may also be interesting to note that the longer shakuhachi are often thought of as more "spiritual", but in fact have arisen after shakuhachi has been secularized, whereas when shakuhachi was the religious tool of the komuso monks, shorter shakuhachi were the standard.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I've done a ton of reading on the subject of music and spirituality and have also attended several new-age type lectures on the subject (just so you know it's not total ignorance, Ed), and although I couldn't find enough articles to support my conjecture all the way through, I did find this article that explains cellular memory as a starting point: http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Spi … ng/id/3935

OK, so cellular memory is basically emotions stored in different parts of your body. It was in a book on reggae music I read once that the different instruments were supposed to affect the different parts of your body, ie., the bass would move your bottom on one end and the guitar was the heady stuff on the other end. I've also been taught that people will choose subconsciously to listen to whatever music is affecting the chakras (energy centers) that need the most healing in their body. So, put two and two together and you can easily see that whatever chakra needs the most healing is the one you'll choose a flute length for.

The bad news is that those who prefer super long flutes are probably trying to access the most primordial lower chakra area that contains lots of sexual energy. That means there's probably some sexual healing that's guiding your preference. But, that's all cool, most of us Americans have that because our first experiences on earth in the American delivery rooms probably caused a lot of birth trauma in those areas with a lot of handling by strangers before ever being handed to the mom, never mind the circumcision that comes a short time after that. It makes me wonder if delivery methods of Japanese typically are different in that respect (unclipped?) so the culture tends to gravitate to flute lengths that access the heart energy centers because that's where their immediate need for healing (or evolving) resides.       



It's pseudo-science if there's actually any science at all to it, but it sounds good to me.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#17 2010-01-17 09:10:08

Thomas
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From: New York City
Registered: 2006-04-21
Posts: 81

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Tairaku wrote:

People were smaller then.

Spiritually smaller?  wink

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#18 2010-01-17 09:28:39

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Not talking about traditional shakuhachi playing, but I used to give some hatha yoga lessons to a class in the past, and after the lesson, about 15 min of relax without music, only ambient sounds, and in the end I used to play shakuhachi, and for that purpouse, the lower pitches, long flutes, (along with loooooooong notes and slow passages) made the people get deeper into themselves, more relaxed ... well, thats what people used to tell me in the end of the relaxing time...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#19 2010-01-17 09:38:49

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Hi Musgo
I would agree that the calmer playing and deeper notes of long shakuhachi are more conducive to relaxation. I think today "relaxation" is often equated with being "spiritual". Perhaps that has a lot to do with the modern connection between long shakuhachi and spirituality.

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#20 2010-01-17 10:52:04

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Thomas wrote:


This is VERY interesting to consider.

People were smaller then.

lol lol lol

But don't the longer shakuhachi these days make players look smaller now?

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#21 2010-01-17 11:24:29

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

radi0gnome wrote:

The bad news is that those who prefer super long flutes are probably trying to access the most primordial lower chakra area that contains lots of sexual energy. That means there's probably some sexual healing that's guiding your preference. . .

Hmm... I never realized that my fanaticism for longer flutes was connected to my obsession with teenaged boys... now that I know, has anyone got a 4.0 laying around? Perhaps that's the pitch I've been subconsciously searching for all these years... and I can finally 'heal' myself!

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#22 2010-01-17 11:46:42

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Long shakuhachi are more spiritual????
Wow!
Why didn't I know that before?

Then I could call myself for spiritual long-shakuhachi guru?

Or someone with just an over-developed hara-chakra! smile


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#23 2010-01-17 13:35:12

Bas Nijenhuis
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From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
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Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Kiku Day wrote:

Then I could call myself for spiritual long-shakuhachi guru?

Ah I sense a new avatar subtitle!!!


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#24 2010-01-17 13:40:10

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Zakarius wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

The bad news is that those who prefer super long flutes are probably trying to access the most primordial lower chakra area that contains lots of sexual energy. That means there's probably some sexual healing that's guiding your preference. . .

Hmm... I never realized that my fanaticism for longer flutes was connected to my obsession with teenaged boys...

Zak

eeeh....that is illegal...!

But now a little more serious about the longer shakuhachi's
2.4 and 2.7 are the more historical lengths (or 2.6)?
I also think as was stated in this thread, length alters a song. Are longer flutes not better suited for more slow songs due to their physics?

And Musgo da Pedra, did you try to play the shorter flutes for the yoga class? Maybe that works as well?

Bas


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#25 2010-01-17 17:58:25

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Shakuhachi length and type of music

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

And Musgo da Pedra, did you try to play the shorter flutes for the yoga class? Maybe that works as well?
Bas

Hi Bas...

There was something "in the air" in those moments, that made high pitches feel like an agression to the silence. Also, many people would be taken out of the relaxed state by high notes... maybe today as I can get more subtle tone color on high notes, this would be possible... anyway , I am not a teacher anymore...

It's like play a short flute at night (even more if you live in an apartament)... I know that these things can be just my feelings and thoughts, but I think that high pitches have to do with day, celebration, fast time, yang,  and low pitches with dark, quiet, introspetion, slow time, yin... you can make links using these with the moments of the day, of the year, of the life, as you like...  just watch the nature...I don't know if I am being clear, but I don't expect so, because this can be very subjective to everyone (although some things are more acording to their own moment, naturally, independent of what our ego feel and think about it)... birds act at the wake of the day diferently in winter, in the spring, if it's raining or if the sun will be high...


I think that in shakuhachi pieces, the purpouse behind the piece, it's history, can also help to define which flute to use (?!)...


A big hug,

Henrique

Last edited by Musgo da Pedra (2010-01-17 18:02:53)


Omnia mea mecum porto

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