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#1 2010-01-17 14:54:05

jdanza
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
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Judge not lest ye not......

There's form, content, and vehicle. I am ever surprised and disturbed by how much the Shakuhachi community is so concerned with the form and the vehicle. If it's important to you to preserve Tradition (and let's hope there's always those who do), then the research and preservation of the right form and vehicle are very important. If you play for "spiritual" purposes, watch that you are not being conditioned by what others think or say, and watch your own conditioning about what constitutes "spiritual". If you simply like the Shakuhachi as a musical instrument for your own musical expression then... whatever works for you. Bottom line for any case scenario: don't judge others!. It's not a religion yet (thank god) but sometimes it almost feels like it.
   I lived three years in Japan and the politics of the Shakuhachi world made me sick... so I never came out of it with a piece of paper and a title... and I really don't care. How can such a deep and profound instrument generate so much judgment and politics I'll never understand.
  Don't worry so much what you play on... work on who you Are. Beauty comes from within, and can be expressed through any form and vehicle. It's what you carry inside that comes out as Sound to bless or curse the world.
  I started with a piece of crap 2.4 in 1978. I still like to play it!. Every instrument has a life and a personality. If you tune in to the instrument it will teach you what it's good for. If you feel good about it don't be swayed or disturbed by other people's opinions, no matter how learned they are (quite often the more learned the more prejudiced).
  Information is always welcome and useful, but not if it's tainted by judgment and self righteousness.
  Bottom line for me... Intention and Being are far more important than Form and Vehicle.

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#2 2010-01-17 15:54:23

waryr
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From: Leesburg Florida
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 70

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

jdanza said - "How can such a deep and profound instrument generate so much judgment and politics I'll never understand."

This deep and profound instrument did not generate said judgement and politics. These were generated by the shallow and inane idiots who use this instrument go bolster their own egos and further their own adgendas. Egos and adgendas are the source of judgements and politics.


If you understand, things are just as they are, if you don't understand, things are just as they are.

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#3 2010-01-17 16:03:21

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

It is important to use judgement and discrimination in developing your art and practice. The mistake is thinking that whatever you are doing is the only way or the proper way, when there is more than one way to skin a cat.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#4 2010-01-17 16:44:14

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Awesome post jdanca!!

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#5 2010-01-17 19:11:01

jdanza
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

waryr wrote:

This deep and profound instrument did not generate said judgement and politics. These were generated by the shallow and inane idiots who use this instrument go bolster their own egos and further their own adgendas. Egos and adgendas are the source of judgements and politics.

I agree with you fully but it does seem so prevalent in the Shakuhachi world and it seems like such a contradiction with the nature of the instrument. The instrument should almost be considered and antidote to ego!... but it doesn't seem to work that way unfortunately... one of those mysteries...

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#6 2010-01-17 19:16:49

Jam
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From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

When I'd just started playing, I said to my teacher
"one of the things I like about the shakuhachi is that there doesn't seem to be much ego involved". He laughed and said "you haven't met the right people yet then".


I see what he means now.

Strange how a little chunk of a plant can bring such arrogance.

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#7 2010-01-17 20:21:38

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Soulful post Jdanza. I could write  a long response to that but I'll just go with "Amen". Chris Blaisdel in his book "A Single Tone" discusses the form versus content issue quite aptly. It's Japanese society in general, not just the shakuhachi community, that is very form conscious and seemingly not as concerned about substance. Often times for westerners, substance is all we care about and could care less about form and when the two cultures meet, it's a problem.
Janza wrote: Intention and Being are far more important than Form and Vehicle.
     
   In support of your not heard often enough statement, I'd like to add:
   If I do something artistic, does that make me artistic?     No.
   If I do something artisticALLY, does that me me artistic?  Yes.
   Art is an atitude and an intention. It is not any specific act.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2010-01-17 20:23:40)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#8 2010-01-17 20:35:59

Jon Kypros
Flutemaker
From: Europe
Registered: 2008-06-28
Posts: 261
Website

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

"I am ever surprised and disturbed by how much the Shakuhachi community is so concerned with the form and the vehicle.
How can such a deep and profound instrument generate so much judgment and politics I'll never understand."

You are "surprised and disturbed" because you have judgments, ideals, etc. but most of us do. Thinking that shakuhachi is inherently deep or profound  or spiritual is placing it on a pedestal. That's bound to cause "surprise and disturbance" because no one can live up to an illusion.

TANKA TENNEN STOPPED OVERNIGHT IN A TEMPLE.

On a very cold night Tanka Tenned stopped at a temple. It was so cold that he lit fire to a statue of the buddha. Awaken by the fire the high priest came running: ”Are you mad or something? What are you doing? You have burned one of my most
valuable Buddhas!”

Then Tanka took his staff – and the Buddha was almost burned – and he started looking in the ashes of the Buddha.
The high priest said, ”What are you doing?”
He said, ”I am looking for Buddha’s "flowers". I have heard that Buddha has bones, and those bones
turn into flowers. I am looking for those flowers.”
The high priest laughed. He said, ”You are certainly insane. It was just a wooden statue, it was not
a buddha!”
And Tanka Tennen said, ”Aha! So it was not the Buddha! And the night is still long and very cold,
and you have so many wooden statues; just bring one or two more.”
The high priest said, ”You are a very dangerous fellow! I cannot allow you to stay in the temple.”
And he forced Tanka Tennen outside the temple in the middle of the night.

Last edited by Jon (2010-01-17 20:51:27)


My site flutedojo. Craftsperson of Jinashi and Jimori shakuhachi for sale since 2002. Dai Shihan 'Grandmaster' and full-time teacher of shakuhachi lessons

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#9 2010-01-17 20:42:59

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

You come in my temple, burn my favourite statue and then give me that attitude? GET OUT!

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#10 2010-01-18 00:43:33

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jim Thompson wrote:

In support of your not heard often enough statement, I'd like to add:
   If I do something artistic, does that make me artistic?     No.
   If I do something artisticALLY, does that me me artistic?  Yes.
   Art is an attitude and an intention. It is not any specific act.

Nicely put, Jim.

But there's a rub to this: If I do something artistically, does that make me an artist?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#11 2010-01-18 01:01:27

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

jdanza wrote:

waryr wrote:

This deep and profound instrument did not generate said judgement and politics. These were generated by the shallow and inane idiots who use this instrument go bolster their own egos and further their own adgendas. Egos and adgendas are the source of judgements and politics.

I agree with you fully but it does seem so prevalent in the Shakuhachi world and it seems like such a contradiction with the nature of the instrument. The instrument should almost be considered and antidote to ego!... but it doesn't seem to work that way unfortunately... one of those mysteries...

Hi Jdanza
I think it may have a lot to do with the closed nature of most of the shakuhachi groups. Most groups only mix among themselves, and understand little about the other groups. I think this lack of understanding may be the main reason for prejudices. Just as an example, I was at a school from aged 8 to 13 in England where there were many black people in the school. We all lived together and got on very well. Racism was not tolerated at all - that is, whites and blacks (and all the others there too) alike would have no tolerance for racist jokes and all understood us as one family. When I went to my next school there was only 1 black guy among over 600 students. And racist jokes could be heard among the students. Everyone got on very well with the black guy and I don't think anyone was seriously racist, but I did notice the attitude was very different from my previous school. Most of these guys would have come from villages where there was not a single black person, and their parents may have been a bit racist as was more common in their generation. So I think it was just exposure to their parents, plus lack of exposure to real black people that gave them a slightly tainted attitude. But they were nice people.

In the shakuhachi world too even among the nicest groups of people one may find quite "racist" views against other ways or lineages. I was mentioning this in the other thread about lengths, and meeting people who hold views that only their way (playing style and instruments) is "real" suizen, when if they only studied the history of it they would then find this implies that suizen never could not have existed even 2 or 3 generations ago, which is quite a contradiction!

And yet, so long as they don't meet people of these other schools, they might be OK. They might still have a very effective practice, and even be working well in a spiritual way. But I do think some understanding of history and other ways could help inter-school relations! I've met people who are quite anti-Kinko-ryu for example, who may not realise it but are actually themselves playing some pieces inherited from Kinko-ryu!

A similar example is in some traditional Buddhist texts. There are some texts where different religions or sects (in this case different schools of Indian philosophy) are summarized and one by one refuted. The purpose seems to be to kind-of prove one's own philosophical position, and prove why it is superior and correct. This in itself can be very useful for ones own study and practice, and in Tibet for example, which was very remote, there was not the problem of likely encounter with any real members of these other schools. Nowadays however, Tibetans or Tibetan Buddhists are likely to meet Theravadin Buddhists and Hindus and so on, and so may better be educated to see the schools and their ideas from the side of those schools, not the rather biased view of their own schools! In the end many systems, even if contradicting each other, can be very correct and functional within themselves.

Last edited by Justin (2010-01-18 01:05:02)

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#12 2010-01-18 02:28:10

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Chris Moran wrote:

If I do something artistically, does that make me an artist?

For that moment, absolutely!


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#13 2010-01-18 04:00:59

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jon wrote:

TANKA TENNEN STOPPED OVERNIGHT IN A TEMPLE.

On a very cold night Tanka Tenned stopped at a temple. It was so cold that he lit fire to a statue of the buddha. Awaken by the fire the high priest came running: ”Are you mad or something? What are you doing? You have burned one of my most
valuable Buddhas!”

you may burn my Buddha, but please not my best shakuhachi.


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#14 2010-01-18 14:48:02

jdanza
Moderator
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
Website

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jon wrote:

You are "surprised and disturbed" because you have judgments, ideals, etc. but most of us do. Thinking that shakuhachi is inherently deep or profound  or spiritual is placing it on a pedestal. That's bound to cause "surprise and disturbance" because no one can live up to an illusion.

I bow to you, Jon. You are absolutely right that it is my jugdment.
   I do, however, feel that there is some kind of "objective" quality to the instrument that touches most people very deeply (other than some children, dogs and cats smile. It certainly changed my life, which would be too long a story to tell here, and from my performances the feedback that I get is pretty consistent. So I confess I do put it on a pedestal. Considering that I have been playing music for about forty years exclusively, traveled and trained in several instruments all over the world, and have passionately studied the power of sound, I do humbly trust that my opinion/feeling holds some weight smile
  For me the Shakuhachi, ever since I first heard it, clearly represented the voice of Spirit calling Home, and since I've always felt a sense of not belonging to this strange place, it affected me in a profound way.
   But, going back to your comment... it is certainly my bias and, as an old teacher of mine used to say: "Opinions are like assholes... everybody's got one".
 
  Justin, thank you for your thoughtful comments... One difference about Tibetan Buddhists... they have a sense of humor!. I lived for three years in India and spent lots of time in monasteries. I never met a Lama that took themselves too seriously (can't say that for many Shakuhachi sensei).

Last edited by jdanza (2010-01-18 14:52:57)

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#15 2010-01-18 21:39:03

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jim Thompson wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

If I do something artistically, does that make me an artist?

For that moment, absolutely!

And the next moment?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#16 2010-01-18 21:59:50

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

jdanza wrote:

Justin, thank you for your thoughtful comments... One difference about Tibetan Buddhists... they have a sense of humor!. I lived for three years in India and spent lots of time in monasteries. I never met a Lama that took themselves too seriously (can't say that for many Shakuhachi sensei).

Hi Jdanza
Yes most Tibetan masters have a great sense of humour don't they! One of the (many) great things about the tradition. I've also spent years in India and Nepal studying and practicing, and occasionally came across some aspects I didn't like. To take an example relevant to contemporary life, it is often taught that "Enlightenment cannot be achieved without receiving Highest Yoga Tantra (Anuttarayoga Tantra) initiations and practicing tantra." This then excludes even Japanese Vajrayana Buddhism (the closest by lineage to Tibetan Buddhism) since they are missing these Tantras. Or, it is taught that Hinayana Buddhism cannot lead to full enlightenment. Some highly trained monk-philosophy teachers directly equate Hinayana with Theravada Buddhism now existing in Thailand, Laos etc, even though if they cared to study from within these traditions they would find they do also contain Mahayana teachings (as defined by Tibetans, thought the Theravadins would not call them "Mahayana, and indeed there are monk-philosophy teachers in Thailand teaching how Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism at all and that they have no hope!)

So these things are messy and, I think, unpleasant. If what they were saying in these things was the truth, I think it would be OK. But the thing is, I don't believe it is. That's not because I want everyone to "get along". It's because of having studied these points from within the respective traditions.

These points are difficult when entering a tradition. It can be easy to inherit these biases and I have met a number of intelligent Westerners who after years of study (not academic but as insiders) naturally come to believe these things. On the bright side, there are people like the Dalai Lama - when he was young he taught this view of the Highest Yoga tantra being the only way, but since he actively learned as much as he could about other traditions, he now has a much more open view and feels it is not the only way. Similarly, Choegyam Trungpa Rinpoche met the great Zen master Suzuki Roshi and had great respect for him, even bringing Zen elements into his own teaching methods.

I would hope that these sectarian elements, where they still remain, would not be enough to put anyone off from studying/practicing Tibetan Buddhism. I see it as the most effective and alive spiritual tradition of all, well worth dedicating ones life efforts to. Similarly I feel very disappointed when I hear a shakuhachi teacher saying "this embouchure/playing style is "suizen" and if you play another way it is not suizen", and students of a school believing only their school has any value. Simple logic or historical knowledge are enough to contradict these views. But again as with religion, I hope these arguments and sectarian traits would not be enough to put someone off. There is so much to learn from the traditions, and as individuals we can try to let these extreme views pass by, and if we don't believe them, simply not adopt them.

In fact they may serve some purpose. One of course is to give more encouragement in study. For the Highest Yoga Tantra for example, if the disciples believe it is the only way to enlightenment they will (hopefully) take it very seriously, generate more devotion and diligence, and be propelled into dedicated practice. With shakuhachi I don't think it is necessary or even helpful to believe other ways are bad, but, it may have a natural effect at keeping a school together, and preserving the lineage so that it doesn't get mixed up. That conservative factor that keeps the living world heterogenous, maintaining diversity (the compliment of creativity).

I guess in the end we all have our biases and levels of acceptance or boundaries. There are also plenty of people in the shakuhachi world who are very open to other schools, and plenty of Tibetan meditators (less focused on the words than the scholars!) who are also very open.

My conclusion personally is that in order to progress one must discriminate, and that within one school are indeed right and wrong ways of playing, but that these do not necessarily apply to other schools. And I enjoy studying from many schools. So I try to keep the styles as true to each school as possible. And though I may sometimes prefer a certain school, I really appreciate the different schools and what unique character each has to offer. I understand also that many of the best teachers may have no interest in other schools  and may indeed be biased against them, so I have found that it is sometimes best to not get into conversations about other schools. In fact if someone is obsessed with only their school that can often make them a very good teacher of their style. So, while the politics and biases within the Japanese shakuhachi world can at times be unpleasant, I encourage anyone who has the interest to "empty their cup", at least temporarily, suspending judgement and opening up to the treasures the traditional shakuhachi world has to offer.

Last edited by Justin (2010-01-18 22:03:25)

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#17 2010-01-18 22:47:03

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Chris Moran wrote:

And the next moment?

The choice is yours.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#18 2010-01-18 23:05:51

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jim Thompson wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

And the next moment?

The choice is yours.

So you're pro-choice then.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#19 2010-01-18 23:26:23

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Chris Moran wrote:

So you're pro-choice then.

I'm not sure. I want to keep my options open.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#20 2010-01-18 23:35:11

jdanza
Moderator
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
Website

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Hey Justin et all
   The way I see it (wether in Buddhism or Shakuhachi) there are two streams that run parallel to each other and are equally necessary:
One is comprised by those who study, research and strictly stick to the Tradition. We can call them the Keepers. The other is comprised by those who, although knowledgeable and rooted in the Tradition, have a thirst to expand it and bring it up to the times by changing, adapting and experimenting. We can call them the Explorers...
In most cases Keepers and Explorers seem to act as enemies and fight endlessly, whereas I think both streams are very necessary and important, and don't contradict each other at all!.
  When I arrived in Canada and started my recording career I contacted the Shakuhachi society, wanting to connect to the community and be in touch with the"keepers". I received a dry and polite letter from the President, saying basically that he had no interest whatsoever in what I was doing because he only listened to Honkyoku. I don't need to tell you my opinion/feeling about that exchange. I never had anything to do with any Shakuhachi anything until I found this blessed forum. The Keepers and Explorers are still fighting, but at least here (mostly) there is communication and mutual respect, and an important exchange of information.
  I agree with Justin that we need discrimination, but discrimination and judgment are a very different thing (discrimination says: "this is no good for me", judgment says: "this is no good").
  There are many roads that lead to the top of the Mountain. May we all meet there and celebrate our diversity.

As for the other parallel thread running here about art and being an artist I say: who cares?. Those are just labels for the display of the ego. As my first teacher kindly told me: "Shut up and play your flute"

Last edited by jdanza (2010-01-18 23:42:45)

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#21 2010-01-19 01:23:22

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Jim Thompson wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

So you're pro-choice then.

I'm not sure. I want to keep my options open.

But do you care?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#22 2010-01-19 09:43:10

Openheart
Member
From: North Florida
Registered: 2009-08-19
Posts: 9

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

May I contend that you are all illusions - presented here are many points of view based on feelings and emotions and fueled by experiences...  All this is merely mental flossing. The instrument that we complete by providing it with breath and sound is nothing more. A wooden Buddha indeed.  There are other parables that meet this issue -the one where the old monk carries the woman across a stream, comes to mind directly and more applicably.  I believe that the issue should have been laid to rest moments after it began. WE in our own minds create our perception -don't let others change it for you. The shakuhachi - Is a wooden buddha. It is whatever we/ the users have created. And we evolve it does not.
But in regard to discrimination, and tonality, and schools of thought and "correctness" -these too have their place. What a loss to the world could we not hear an ensemble of instruments -in tune and focused - together making far more than each individually. Belief also can provide more understanding when expressed as a group -focused and in tune.  But beware lest the Ego once again makes you think that this is more than illusion.
O


Change, I am. Impermanence, I am. I am impermanently changed -Praise to awakening!

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#23 2010-01-19 11:40:36

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Openheart wrote:

May I contend that you are all illusions - presented here are many points of view based on feelings and emotions and fueled by experiences...  All this is merely mental flossing. The instrument that we complete by providing it with breath and sound is nothing more. A wooden Buddha indeed.  There are other parables that meet this issue -the one where the old monk carries the woman across a stream, comes to mind directly and more applicably.  I believe that the issue should have been laid to rest moments after it began. WE in our own minds create our perception -don't let others change it for you. The shakuhachi - Is a wooden buddha. It is whatever we/ the users have created. And we evolve it does not.
But in regard to discrimination, and tonality, and schools of thought and "correctness" -these too have their place. What a loss to the world could we not hear an ensemble of instruments -in tune and focused - together making far more than each individually. Belief also can provide more understanding when expressed as a group -focused and in tune.  But beware lest the Ego once again makes you think that this is more than illusion.
O

Given what you here opine, no one (being an illusion) should say anything....ever.

Kind of a bad rut to get into, innit?

Get thee to a monastery, oh, holier than thou.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#24 2010-01-19 11:45:03

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

We should just keep an empty mind and play. smile let others do what they will do.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#25 2010-01-19 12:07:17

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Judge not lest ye not......

Openheart wrote:

All this is merely mental flossing.

Isn't that what a forum is?


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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