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purehappiness wrote:
It almost feels kind of cruel that we claim these animals as ours anyways. We should just be their friends and let them live their own lives. But then I don't know how long dogs would live by themselves in the wild.I suppose dogs and man do coexist well together.
...and they have for at least 12,000 years.
Besides, in spite of all the cruelty and neglect millions of pets are subject to, the 'Wild' is an even more vicious and heartless place.
Get a grip.
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purehappiness wrote:
It almost feels kind of cruel that we claim these animals as ours anyways. We should just be their friends and let them live their own lives. But then I don't know how long dogs would live by themselves in the wild.I suppose dogs and man do coexist well together.
I tend to agree, but the the dogs don't seem to mind (for the most part, they do seem to be majorly bummed out by those leashes a lot) and after breeding them to extremes of 20 pound 1 foot tall chihuahua I don't think they'd fare well on their own anyway.
And really, I know being at the top of the food chain and being the dominant species on the planet (I say that because none of these other creatures seem all that together in the communication department, they can't even get the ball point pen thing working never mind wireless communications) kind of obliges us to show compassion, but it's very impractical giving up a food group being an omnivore and even if you do manage that, plants apparently have feelings too (awesome movie, it's long so you might want to save it for later): http://video.google.com/googleplayer.sw … 8977368381
P.S. I can't get the link to the movie working right, it throws you into full-screen mode. You can get back using the back button on the browser, but it can be a little annoying seeing your browser being taken over by a full screen video.
Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-02-04 08:54:01)
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purehappiness wrote:
It almost feels kind of cruel that we claim these animals as ours anyways. We should just be their friends and let them live their own lives. But then I don't know how long dogs would live by themselves in the wild.I suppose dogs and man do coexist well together.
My family had a Samoyed when I was 11 - 15 years old. I'm always surpised at how often I think of her through out the years.
Laurie and Kinya has a yard inhabited by many denizens with whom they enjoy a respectful co-existence. They recently documented the raising of a family right outside their bathroom window. This one is named Mejiro.
Photo by Laurie Sogawa
Last edited by Yungflutes (2010-02-04 09:27:19)
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What a beautiful bird.
I was going to say on what edosan stated that about getting a grip that "sometimes what comes from the heart is not always logical".
The same goes with plants. We can become vegetarians but we will have to eat something.
Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-04 11:51:51)
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In the communication department take a look at dolphins and elephants. They pass the MSR (Mirror Self-Recognition) test, indicating self-consciousness. Read G.A. Bradshaw's Elephants On the Edge; What Animals Teach Us About Humanity (2009) for an eye opening view of the pachyderms...(traumatized elephants and the breakdown of elephant cultures under stresses of wars, culls, poaching, habitat loss...)
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edosan wrote:
Besides, in spite of all the cruelty and neglect millions of pets are subject to, the 'Wild' is an even more vicious and heartless place.
Get a grip.
Damn straight!
Similarly women treat each other much worse than men treat women. So these feminists should stop harassing us dudes.
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Tairaku wrote:
... Similarly women treat each other much worse than men treat women. So these feminists should stop harassing us dudes.
Getting back to the topic at hand:
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Alright. I have been hanging out with my wife too much. I need to ride a harley and drink some beer.Maybe even at the SAME TIME!
Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-05 18:44:08)
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Many prehistoric anthropologists would argue that man has been able to accomplish what he has specifically because dogs chose to be our companions. Certainly many dogs have been and are treated as property and in strictly pragmatic terms. However, dogs kind of domesticated themselves by exploiting ancient trash heaps that sprang up outside of prehistoric villages for food. Dogs, in many ways, naturally selected themselves for tameness by virtue of their flight tolerance. The most tolerant of people simply found their way back to the source of the trash/food, the village itself. Dogs have also been selected, by men, for their propensity to bark. This became a major upper hand in survival for villages with dogs, as opposed to those without. Although a great deal of violence has been perpetrated on the domestic dog, the actual domestication of the dog was not such a violent occurance, at least as far people interested can ascertain.
I'm sure that there are lots of people who still feel that they own their dogs, and are therefore responsible for them. However, I think that a growing majority of people feel that our dogs and cats, at least, are ours in much the same way that our children or our parents are ours. The ownership and "beast of burden" factor seems to be fading for many, although what you describe is a very Buddhist way of looking at the pet owner scenario. And, I understand the vast difference in when you have to take your pet to the vet to be put down. It is quite a bit more active than simply letting our loved ones go and usually boils down to a question of convenience for most, not all but at least many. My wife had a 15 year old cat that just would not stop pissing everywhere due to kidney issues. We changed the food, which helped for a while and tried some other things that the vet suggested, but in the end he went back to having control issues. I don't plan on taking my folks down to the suicide booth, a al Welcome to the Monkey House, when they can't hold their bowells anymore, so there is still alot of hypocrisy. We snuffed the old cat late last year.
We still have a 10 year German Shepherd/Alsacian named Rommel (mine before the marriage), and a 6 year old boxer named Ally (hers before the marriage). They have really been enjoying themselves since we all met 4 years ago. When we finally moved in together, they were both very excited. I'm glad my guy has company throughout the day now that he is getting up there in years. I dread the day I'll have to take him to the vet for the needle. Still, having seen another of my shepherds die from more natural causes, going the vet route does indeed seem more humane, in an ironic and rationalising kind of way. Of course, I hear Chikuzen will off your cat for you at no charge, traveling expenses not withstanding. ;D
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You are right it is very buddhist. I may have let my ego get the best of me in the last post. Trying to save face with the guys on the forum. I think society in general has become very desensitized to violence and cruelty. We see it everyday on television and in other places and we think nothing of being that way ourselves. We need to try and find our true feelings deep inside and try and let them come to the surface(i.e. the little kid in all of us). We may look like wooses but it is the better thing to do.The world needs it.
Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-09 11:29:53)
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I can see both sides of it, but only because I haven't made the hard decision to go without pets. That would be a difficult one for me, but I can respect it. It is a moral decision very similar to eating meat. I certainly respect vegetarianism, although I still enjoy eating meat. It has helped me lose weight recently, even. It is odd, because I said I wouldn't take my folks down to the suicide booth, but the decisions involved in putting a pet down often boil down to, "do I have enough money for the medicine needed." Here in the US similar decisions are made all the time about people based on whether or not the family can afford the health care. Recently people even tried to "pull through" to the new year because a capital gains tax was expiring. Now, lots of folks may decide to "pull the plug" (we have euphemisms for evetything) before new years eve to take advantage of the lapse before it is rectified. Certainly, it is a sick business. Still, I think that ideas of purity and stainlessness are euphemisms in and of themselves. I think the point of the thread is that a guy lost his pal. In such situations I generally make a nervous and inappropriate joke, but that is probably not the best reaction. Resorting to our "Buddhist" persona may not be the classiest thing to do either, but I see where you are coming from on it.
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If I may interject,
I appreciate everyone's posts in this thread. While I'm still upset, it's getting easier. I couldn't imagine a life without a pet. It's going to be difficult going home.
Saying that, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I honestly don't mind that it happens in here.
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Hey Jam.
I remember when the mad Springer I grew up with (mad even by springer standards) died while I was off at Uni. In some ways not being there was the hardest part, it feels like "home" will never be the same again. Which is true enough, but it's still home, the hole heals. When you get there, you'll see.
Low - have you seen the Russian research with the tame Foxes - and the scarier stuff done with breeding rats for behavioural traits?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … ation.html
For some reason it makes me think about Gandhi's comment on western civilisation.
Last edited by Ambi (2010-02-10 14:49:27)
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Not to change the subject but I had a real bad thing happen when I was growing up. I was in maine visiting my uncle and aunt and they had a dog. Well, one day the dog was wanting to play but I was busy doing something. I don't remember what but anyway, I threw a stick and it went across the street at my uncles house. It wasn't a busy street, since we were in upper maine afterall but a truck came anyway and the dog not knowing any better ran back from across the street right into the path of the truck and got hit. I tried to tell him to wait but he didn't understand.That made me feel so bad. It was like I killed that dog by throwing the stick across the street. I was only trying to get the dog to stop bothering me not kill it. I still feel awful to this day about that. The dog did eventually die. It was an awful and tragic day. I don't even feel good bringing it up right now. I guess sometimes things happen and there is nothing we can do about them.
The pickup truck didn't even stop.
Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-10 10:44:02)
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Jam wrote:
If I may interject,
I appreciate everyone's posts in this thread. While I'm still upset, it's getting easier. I couldn't imagine a life without a pet. It's going to be difficult going home.
Saying that, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I honestly don't mind that it happens in here.
Yes, back to the subject at hand ...
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puppy love.
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Gosh how terrible.
"believe in the foma [harmless untruths] that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy"
Or not.
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It just goes to show you that sometimes life can throw you a curve ball.
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Another thing it showed is to watch out what you do in life because you never know what results it will bring(karma?).
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edosan wrote:
Jam wrote:
MikeL
Thanks for your post, it was really nice to read. The thought of having another dog now is too painful, but perhaps later in life I'll consider it. If I do, it'll be a rescue one I think.
My dog was deaf towards the end of his life, though when I went back home for christmas I sat down and played shakuhachi in my living room and he came over and nuzzled me. He stood all over my sheet music but I didn't care, I'll never forget setting down my flute and cuddling him. I'll never be able to do that again..When my Cattle Dog previous to Buster died (Buzz: he lived 15 very good years), I went through the usual agony of 'should I even get another dog at ALL?', 'should I wait, out of 'respect', should I get a rescue dog?'
Took me six days to get past this and get Buster (as a pup). Unless for many reasons you can't HAVE a dog (lifestyle, location, need to be free of the responsibility, etc), the best cure for the loss of a dog is another dog, full stop. You can very well grieve the loss and still nurture the new. To me, not having a dog is like not having my entire body.
Last week marked the three year anniversary of the passing my cattle dog Boston. We never got another got another dog and I still miss him. Pets aren't just pets, they share our lives. When they suddenly aren't in our life anymore, it feels like something is missing.
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Dogs came to our home fires long ago, Pure. ...cats sauntered into our midden areas sometime after that. I love my kitties a heck of a lot. Do I own them? Let's say I care for them and leave it at that.
It's actually quite interesting, the theory of domesticated pets. Dogs with a lower adrenaline response were the ones that came close to the fire, probably; those who stayed fearful and away remained wolves. A few decades back, Russian scientists selectively bred foxes, choosing the friendliest ones to breed litters; within a few generations they had very dog-like foxes, even with 'doggish' features.
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Tairaku wrote:
edosan wrote:
Besides, in spite of all the cruelty and neglect millions of pets are subject to, the 'Wild' is an even more vicious and heartless place.
Get a grip.Damn straight!
Similarly women treat each other much worse than men treat women. So these feminists should stop harassing us dudes.
this is why I prefer the company of men. They are much more trustworthy in my opinion
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Interesting. Living in a wooded area I see so many different animals. Coyote,raccoon, turkeys,otters once, etc... All animals are such beautiful creatures. I have chipmunks scurrying about all of the time as well as squirrels too.
I saw some foxes playing in the street once. They are very beautiful. That brings up another subject on how anyone could hunt. I know I can't. I don't fish either. It is too cruel. Especially, if you don't eat them.I remeber one day while fishing I picked up this pumpkin seed or perch I caught and just looked at it gasping for air and that was the last time I fished. Why do it. You know.I think we all need to realize how beautiful all the animals are.
Last edited by purehappiness (2010-03-05 11:45:16)
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purehappiness wrote:
Interesting. Living in a wooded area I see so many different animals. Coyote,raccoon, turkeys,otters once, etc... All animals are such beautiful creatures. I have chipmunks scurrying about all of the time as well as squirrels too.
I saw some foxes playing in the street once. They are very beautiful. That brings up another subject on how anyone could hunt. I know I can't. I don't fish either. It is too cruel.
Cruelty is relative. Get hongry enough, you can hunt. Or eat grass. No problem.
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edosan wrote:
purehappiness wrote:
Interesting. Living in a wooded area I see so many different animals. Coyote,raccoon, turkeys,otters once, etc... All animals are such beautiful creatures. I have chipmunks scurrying about all of the time as well as squirrels too.
I saw some foxes playing in the street once. They are very beautiful. That brings up another subject on how anyone could hunt. I know I can't. I don't fish either. It is too cruel.Cruelty is relative. Get hongry enough, you can hunt. Or eat grass. No problem.
Cruelty is definitely relative. If you wanted to carry it out to an extreme then think about all those cows caged up and giving you milk or even chickens laying eggs. Then there are leather goods and feather pillows. If you eat meat then at some point it was walking around. The difference is how detached you are from the process.
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