Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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Tube of delight!

#1 2010-04-14 22:22:28

flea
Member
From: Canberra
Registered: 2010-02-15
Posts: 15
Website

Hi to all from Canberra

Hi, and bows,

I have been studying shakuhachi with Riley Lee for 10 years.  I am currently working on the piece 'Sanya no kyoku' Three Valleys, but have had to take a major detour to reverse a habit.

I am working solely in front of a mirror; working on long tones and meri- kari.

The habit was a result of the left side of my face not working- Riley likened it to picking up a parcel with one hand, the other just steadying the load.  When I am conscious of the left side my sound is better and the air stream is more efficient.  I am focusing on the sensation of the air moving through.  But no performing at a friendly local cafe, no pieces and no mucking around with CD's for the time being.  Definately no more playing on the bus.

I feel very fortunate to have stumbled across the shakuhachi after thinking that a flute might help me give up smoking, so far, so good. I attended two Australian Festivals and the World Festival in 2008.

I am very grateful for encouragement early in my practice from the Japanese Teachers: Kazushi Matama, Teruo Furuya and Kaoru Kakizakai. When I first demonstrated my technique to Matama sensei he laughed and quickly took to my David Brown 1.8 (hardwood flute) with a rasp and file.

Matama sensei '10 minutes a day as loud as you can' (on the bottom note, Ro)

I have enjoyed Stan Richardson's instruction, stories and beautiful music at the festivals; mornings by the lake with Rupert Summerson who showed me how to blow long tones and stick at it; and ongoing encouragement by fellow student Graham Ranft who reminds me 'it's not easy'.

Last year my workplace realised they had made a mistake in my favour and next thing I knew I had a beautiful handmade bamboo flute.

I have gleaned a few things from the forum, and more encouragement, so thanks and hi to all.

Fiona.


I have never been here before: my breath comes differently, the sun is outshone by a star beside it. Franz Kafka

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#2 2010-04-15 00:03:21

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi Fiona and a warm Welcome to the Forum, I am sure you will find it to be a repository of Shakuhachi advice, memorabilia and relics.

I am interested to know just what part of your David Brown was re-shaped, if you would be so kind, thank you.

I also enjoyed the 2008 festival very much, I would do it again.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#3 2010-04-15 03:10:45

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Welcome to the forum smile

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#4 2010-04-16 01:47:12

flea
Member
From: Canberra
Registered: 2010-02-15
Posts: 15
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi Karmajampa,

The flute was shaped at the mouthpiece where the flute rests on my chin and the bottom hole was widened a little to help with the finger shading in the meri position. When I last saw Matama sensei at the festival in 2008 he again took to my flute with a file; the top hole was widened a little; again at the bottom of the finger hole to help with the meri shading. All of which helped me to practice.

Perhaps I will see you at a festival in the future.

Thanks for the welcome.


I have never been here before: my breath comes differently, the sun is outshone by a star beside it. Franz Kafka

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#5 2010-04-16 01:57:48

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Yokoyama's people love to hack away on their students' flutes, sometimes with iffy results.

A practice picked up from Yokoyama himself  smile


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2010-04-16 02:42:50

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Thanks Fiona, another question........
Did he alter the chinrest on the inside and/or the outside ?

That I might expect, shaping the holes for shading is even more interesting as I would expect some change in sound also, perhaps volume, pitch a little and tone.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#7 2010-04-17 05:11:16

flea
Member
From: Canberra
Registered: 2010-02-15
Posts: 15
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi, the shaping was on the outside of the mouthpiece, a substantial 1/2 an inch I guess; it made the flute more readily sit in a kari position on my chin. With the shaping of the holes 1 and 4; my sense of pitch is not fantastic (I am an adult learner of music); I understand from another student that this can help get a better sound in the meri position. From a practice point of view I think the widening of the holes made my work to get the meri sound, without too much reliance on shading, really pay off in a lovely meri sound.

Even after 10 years I struggle with the kan register in the higher notes and found that I could not get the B sharp in the upper register, a dai kari (big kari) position, without really straining at my embouchure, hence a very lopsided one. I am finding that these notes are not that hard to get but as one side of my face tires quickly the other side has to work twice as hard and this is where I got into trouble with habitually pulling at the right side.

I can appreciate Edosan's comment about the results of shaping the flute not always being good; I will not be letting anyone near my Ichijo bamboo flute. I think the David Brown's are somewhat malleable and the most benefit for me was getting more comfortable in the kari position.


I have never been here before: my breath comes differently, the sun is outshone by a star beside it. Franz Kafka

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#8 2010-04-17 16:45:20

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Thanks again Fiona, I find that interesting about how the hole size in influencing the meri sound, I will be taking particular notice on my flute shaping.

regarding the kan and dai-kan notes, have you had instruction regarding tightening your vocal chords, practicing by singing the note, if you can reach it.
A good practice is by playing the otsu note then tighten your vocal chord until the kan note happens, that is all.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#9 2010-04-18 01:28:33

flea
Member
From: Canberra
Registered: 2010-02-15
Posts: 15
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi Karmajampa,

The hole shaping is subtle, when I look at it, just enough so that when the finger rolls off the hole a little air can leak out; on the inside of the flute the finger hole has it's original integrity.

I have never tried to sing the note before; when I gave it a little try I got a nice bright kan register; thanks I will be trying that again.

Best regards, F.


I have never been here before: my breath comes differently, the sun is outshone by a star beside it. Franz Kafka

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#10 2010-04-18 11:29:28

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Fiona Dawes wrote:

I have never tried to sing the note before; when I gave it a little try I got a nice bright kan register; thanks I will be trying that again.

Singing while playing is a silver flute teaching technique Robert Dick, a well-respected modern silver flute teacher/performer, likes and wrote about in his books. He calls it throat tuning. The theory can be simply thought of as that the mouth cavity and throat are part of the acoustic system and that by changing the shape of those you can boost your tone. Since the muscles in the throat are difficult to work just by thinking about it, and singing the note while playing trains your muscles to get the best shape in your throat. My experiences with it is that it works, and yes, those harmonics and difficult kan and dai kan notes will sometimes just magically sound when you practice it. You might want to talk to Geni about it, he was able to get most of Robert's exercises in these videos working on shakuhachi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCxXc5p96YA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ph1mBxVfbI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjQ6O54SoGA

Or... Since the objective here is getting into kan, Chikuzen described a neat technique to me during the free lesson I got where you use your tongue to shape the mouth cavity (maybe that fits in with the throat tuning theory) and then it takes just a little tiny bit of lip pressure and the kan notes just pop out. That technique improved my playing tremendously despite that there are some details about it I didn't quite get. I think he said some schools use the technique and others don't, so it's apparently not a holy grail sort of thing, even though I'd like to think so. smile


Fiona Dawes wrote:

I am currently working on the piece 'Sanya no kyoku' Three Valleys, but have had to take a major detour to reverse a habit.

I am working solely in front of a mirror; working on long tones and meri- kari.

and...

Even after 10 years I struggle with the kan register in the higher notes and found that I could not get the B sharp in the upper register, a dai kari (big kari) position, without really straining at my embouchure, hence a very lopsided one. I am finding that these notes are not that hard to get but as one side of my face tires quickly the other side has to work twice as hard and this is where I got into trouble with habitually pulling at the right side.

A few things here. It sounds like you're doing what I did a little over a year ago and decided that scrunching up my face wasn't getting me where I wanted. Same deal with me, I had to pretty much put myself into a purgatory where I was going to sound really bad always until I re-trained the muscles involved to stay as relaxed as possible. I'd say this is a holy grail type thing too, if it weren't for that there are some very fine players out there that scrunch up their faces. Anyway, it suits me a lot better, it's a lot more comfortable and fun to play that way.

Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but a B sharp is equivalent to a C. Since you say you're trying to dai kari up to a B sharp, I assume you must mean from the next closed hole below the C. That would mean you're trying to kari all the way from the A to the C above it. No wonder you're finding it difficult. Am I misunderstanding?

And finally, the whole thing about working "solely" on tone. I know where you're coming from, but don't you have a few good otsu only (or mostly) songs to apply your new embouchure to? You want to get using your new embouchure in real music situations as soon as possible. Using the notes of a song as a tone exercise is a good way to do this.

BTW, are you doing this re-vamping of your embouchure with the guidance of a teacher? I went through it pretty much alone, but I have a fairly extensive silver, Irish flute, baroque flute and ney background, and I felt perfectly capable of figuring things out for myself. You might have to shop around for a teacher to help you with it, but it could be worth the effort.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#11 2010-04-21 03:29:23

flea
Member
From: Canberra
Registered: 2010-02-15
Posts: 15
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi Radi0gnome,

Thankyou, I am glad you mentioned the 'holy grail' sort of things; I have had the experience of having two teachers suggesting contradictory techniques, so am clear that there are no right or wrong ways, rather each step is useful on the journey.  I will be seeing Riley in about 4 weeks so will take it from there. 

Riley's technique of teaching is somewhat well known for throwing all manner of things at the student. So before I was learning Sanya we covered Koku 'Empty Sky' and the technique of 'glissando' (I think it is called this).  So glissando upward, using primarily kari technique to get an airy note increasing in volume and about 10 cents sharper than the original note.  And going slowly, like traveling across the utaguchi. It is interesting to me how it is more difficult to then return to the original pitch, holding pitch, than to kari upwards. It was a great exercise but of course I overdid it.

I am learning that I need to have the sound before the air hits the utaguchi; that was reitterated in Robert Dick's videos when he demonstrated the throat tuning technique; I had initially thought that throat tuning would mean tightening the throat but the exercise is relaxed.  Having confidence that the sound will be there is like a leap of faith and I am finding the singing helpful.

When I had a lesson with Teruro Furuya at the festival, he suggested; and it fits with Chikuzen's suggestion for managing kan; to imagine the sound coming from high in the mouth near the palate and shaping the lips as if to whistle.  It is making me think about the direction I need to blow in; but I really love Stan Richardson's suggestion of not putting too much 'intention' into shaping the embouchure.

Radi0gnome said "Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but a B sharp is equivalent to a C. Since you say you're trying to dai kari up to a B sharp, I assume you must mean from the next closed hole below the C. That would mean you're trying to kari all the way from the A to the C above it. No wonder you're finding it difficult. Am I misunderstanding?"

No, that is my mistake; I am trying to get from A to the B flat; however my B flat is very flat; it is the first note in 'Hachigaeshi' 'Returning the Bowl'; it would be good to get.

It is great to get this advice, the suggestion to use the throat tuning is timely as I have just been introduced to the vibrato sound made by vibrating the back of the throat (kind of like gargling); I am sure you will know how it sounds. It will be a long term project I understand.  So wow,

Bye for now, Fiona.


I have never been here before: my breath comes differently, the sun is outshone by a star beside it. Franz Kafka

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#12 2010-04-21 08:02:16

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hi Fiona, I would hold off on internalizing techniques picked up on an internet forum until you see Riley and get some real world advice. The BBQ is a nice place to hang out but it's not a good substitute for lessons with a Dai Shihan. smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#13 2010-04-21 11:56:54

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Tairaku wrote:

. The BBQ is a nice place to hang out but it's not a good substitute for lessons with a Dai Shihan. smile

word.

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#14 2010-04-21 12:19:31

Kohl
Member
Registered: 2009-05-21
Posts: 91
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Tairaku wrote:

Hi Fiona, I would hold off on internalizing techniques picked up on an internet forum until you see Riley and get some real world advice. The BBQ is a nice place to hang out but it's not a good substitute for lessons with a Dai Shihan. smile

I agree airin. times two. so, double word. born of my own experience, i can say this is an excellent suggestion. thanks tairaku.


"I begin to feel the depths of a bamboo path..."
                              Meng Hao-Jan (689-740)

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#15 2010-04-21 12:34:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

When Ken and I put together this forum we thought of it as a Shakuhachi BBQ or pub, a gathering place. We are a bit concerned that some people seem to think they can learn how to play shakuhachi here. You can't. And having beginners teaching other beginners technique is really the blind leading the blind. It can cause a lot of problems.

Not really trying to suppress free speech here but we have to keep things in context.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2010-04-21 12:42:51

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

I'll have my "usual" Tairaku.

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#17 2010-04-21 12:48:27

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Tairaku wrote:

Not really trying to suppress free speech here but we have to keep things in context.

Yes. It's a tough call because you don't want to tell others they can't express themselves. However, It's important for the new members to know that the forum is a limited environment to conduct a playing or making tutorial. It can do more harm than good. It's a fine line.

Maybe the most responsible thing we can do is to repeat the reminder from time to time.

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#18 2010-04-21 13:53:05

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Mujitsu wrote:

It's a fine line.

It's a wide, deep, black line, bounded by bright yellow stripes...

Cranky

Last edited by edosan (2010-04-21 13:54:48)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#19 2010-04-21 17:52:32

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

madoherty wrote:

I'll have my "usual" Tairaku.

You mean............

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/Bombay%20Sapphire/photo-1.jpg


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2010-04-21 19:26:53

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

http://www.khznoise.net/lordkhz/guiness-big.gif http://media.nowpublic.net/images//56/6/566d258945ffa35f397175dfcd81fc67.jpg

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#21 2010-04-22 13:23:47

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Tairaku wrote:

We are a bit concerned that some people seem to think they can learn how to play shakuhachi here.

I haven't seen anyone say that they intended to learn shakuhachi by reading the forum. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has held and tried blowing through the instrument would think that they could learn via the forum.

I feel like you guys are implying I crossed the line again by expressing my experiences and findings while not being an licensed teacher (or being a teacher of any kind).

I understand the thought that the folk style of learning, which is basically pick up what you can by hanging out with people who can play, sucks. For example, Irish session musicians here in the US very rarely take lessons, you learn mostly by picking little tidbits from fellow participants at little get-togethers in bars that they call sessions. It depends on the regulars at the session, but for the most part people who want to learn suck at it for a lot longer than if they had real lessons.

Should we have guidelines about what is appropriate to post? Maybe only certified teachers should be able to give opinions that could possibly be construed as teaching, leaving us lesser beings confined to posting little blurbs like "Yes! I agree with what top-sensei just said", or maybe questions, but then the only appropriate answer if it doesn't come from a certified teacher is "get a teacher and ask them".

When you're finished getting all the students (I'm using a loose definition of student here because some people don't even really qualify as students because they don't have a teacher) to stop saying anything that might be construed as teaching, maybe you can tackle getting rid of the fingering charts that are floating around on the internet tempting new shakuhachi owners to thinking they can possibly figure anything out on their own. I'm pretty much convinced the fingering charts are useful only as a memorization aid because you really need a teacher or a damn good teaching book to interpret them. Oh,... and then you can tackle getting rid of the teaching books. Maybe then we can put an end to all the harm that being done to the art of shakuhachi.   

OK, now that I've taken a few deep breaths and calmed down some, if my above sarcasm didn't make any sense, I hope it's OK to express that I don't see what the problem is. How the heck is my or anyone else's comments in this thread damaging to the shakuhachi world?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#22 2010-04-22 13:51:22

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

We are a bit concerned that some people seem to think they can learn how to play shakuhachi here.

I feel like you guys are implying I crossed the line again by expressing my experiences and findings while not being an licensed teacher (or being a teacher of any kind).

Easy fella! smile It's a general statement. Not aimed at you. It's something we grapple with regularly on the forum. It's part of the job.

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#23 2010-04-22 14:33:57

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Hey Fiona,

I don't know about all these other knobs, but I learned how to play shakuhachi on the forum:

Video


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#24 2010-04-22 14:35:30

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

Mujitsu wrote:

It's a general statement. Not aimed at you.

But you put the statement in a thread where there were very few participants discussing technical stuff. I personally found Fiona's posts very interesting,... the suggestions by various teachers, that some teachers taught contradictory stuff (at least from the student's perspective), the note she was trying to get and what it was used for, and most of all that she decided to make such a radical adjustment to her embouchure.

Also, what are you supposed to do when your sensei decides to hack away at and make modifications to your flute like Fiona described? Maybe if you trusted them enough, but if not, now that's a good reason for Skype lessons.   

Tairaku wrote:

Not really trying to suppress free speech here but we have to keep things in context.

I find the thought that you guys want these kind of posts suppressed a little frightening.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#25 2010-04-22 15:53:12

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Hi to all from Canberra

radi0gnome wrote:

I find the thought that you guys want these kind of posts suppressed a little frightening.

If you are afraid, you always have the option of running away...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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