Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Gishin, you don't have to tell us. If we do meditate and get in contact deeply into our souls - we know! It is totally retarded!
Kees, some cask strength would do good at all times - misunderstood or not

Gishin wrote:

Retards! Retards I tell you!!!!


This thread is as pathetic as this performance!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuBQBZlT9bw

He should have retired way before that just like this freaking thread!

Now back to my grave!

Apparently, it isn't actually a grave, in the strict sense. Rumours of your death must be exaggerated.

Lodro wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Then that's not music, it's anthropology or religion.

Music is also part of both, it always has been

I'm not in favor of people withholding music from other people. Regarding the aboriginal songs, why do you want to learn them if they're not "yours"?

Tairaku wrote:

Lodro wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Then that's not music, it's anthropology or religion.

Music is also part of both, it always has been

I'm not in favor of people withholding music from other people. Regarding the aboriginal songs, why do you want to learn them if they're not "yours"?

That's fine, everyone has the right to believe in whatever they think is for the greater good.

With regard to why I'd like to learn those songs. I suppose I could rave on and on about that.....but I won't so I'll partially rave on and on about that. I spent 10 years as a lecturer at the University of Adelaide's 'Centre for Aboriginal Studies in Music' teaching various stuff from keyboards, saxophone, music theory to ensemble work and other stuff. The school is for people of Aboriginal descent who want to develop their music skills. One of the subjects that the students and teachers were involved in was 'Tribal Singing' where we would have Anangu (traditional Aboriginal people) from the Pitjantjatjara/Yankunytjatjara lands come down to the city for 2 weeks to teach some of their songs and generally impart information to the urban kids who might not have had any contact with traditional culture. So we learned these beautiful songs. We also had field trips to the traditional lands, observed traditional way of life, inma (ceremony), songs, etc. We were also occasionally allowed to observe some 'sacred ceremonies'. The songs in these ceremonies were quite different to the other songs that are for general public use. They had a different kind of beauty to them. For that reason alone I would like to learn them, nothing else. But as I said before, I can't. And to me that's fine.

Last edited by Lodro (2009-05-07 23:03:07)

Here's a thought.

I will assert that I am more insecure than anyone on the forum.

Now can we go back to blowing the bamboo of our choice?

Tairaku wrote:

I'm touchy about this Aboriginal stuff because the first time I played in Tasmania in '92 I was accosted by a girl who identified herself as a Tasmanian Aboriginal (although she looked like Goldilocks) and berated me for playing didgeridoo saying I was not "permitted" to do so.

Look I don't blame you for being touchy about this stuff. It's a pile of frog-crap, there's as many ridiculous comments from Aboriginal people as anyone other race, the classic one being that women aren't allowed to play didge! I wish that the people who make those kinds of comments had done their research beforehand instead of just making blanket statements based on an erroneous view. It tends to be an 'urban thing' and that's why it's important for urban Aboriginal people to get some education about the reality of where they came from.

Tairaku wrote:

In the case of the Tasmanian aborigines that's difficult because there is little continuous culture. They're trying to reconstruct it. And none of them have a significant percentage of Aboriginal blood. Very diluted. I'm going to try to learn more about it.

Yes and unless I'm mistaken I think they feel a bit of an inferiority complex about being separated from the mainland thing. (Actually wasn't it only a while back that Tasmania was sometimes left off the map by mistake!)

Maybe with this nice poem (it made me laugh) its time to close this thread?

Tairaku wrote:

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Alas poor Gishin, I knew his raves
His sage advice, a model of decorum
And now we hear he's risen from the grave
What miracles we witness on this forum
And if he returns to that shadow land
What manner of flute will remain in his hand?
Venture a guess to end the story
Ji-ari, ji-nashi, or ji-mori?

Decorum and advice is the life of a flute pimp!

Now take those bitches to the pavement and play!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaj-7Bro … re=related

These days I rarely read the forum but I have just noticed this interesting discussion, so I thought I would add some input from Japan.

Lodro wrote:

I don't know very much at all about the shakuhachi having taken up the habit only 1 month ago and this is simply my personal opinion but why not ask/consult with the traditional owners of the instrument. It's their instrument, their tradition. That's what we do in Aboriginal Australia (or at least we're meant to anyway). Respect and empowerment to the tradition. Besides they might have the answers.

Hi Lodro. Riley Lee is one of those traditional owners of the instruments. I guess that is why he is trying to help educate the forum. To quote from his website, "He is the recipient of two of the oldest and most venerated lineages of traditional shakuhachi, which can be traced back to the Zen Buddhist komusô, or "priests of nothingness" of the Edo period in Japan. In 1980, he became the first non-Japanese to attain the rank of dai shihan or Grand Master." Just to give some background info to the voice.
Riley, it's very nice to see you writing here. Great to hear your input.

I personally believe much of the confusion in this thread concerning terminology, is the difference between what the words mean in different contexts. On the one hand there is Kiku's definition, which may be the definition used at Osaka University, and on the other hand there is the observation of what the word means in the shakuhachi community in Japan in general. I believe it was the latter that Riley was voicing. I regularly interact with a large variety of honkyoku players and I would say that the definition of jinashi in the sticky of this forum simply does not apply to the "real world" in Japan. I can also say that the term "jimori" is almost entirely unheard of.

So for the sticky, I would say that this might apply to the academic circles where they are concerned about classification:
Jinashi shakuhachi (地なし尺八) = literally: Shakuhachi without ji (used about shakuhachi where the material is only bamboo)

And this may apply to the actual general shakuhachi population:
Jinashi shakuhachi (地なし尺八) = literally: Shakuhachi without ji (used about shakuhachi where there is little or no ji)

It is true, there are some groups of people here in Japan who use the term "jinashi" in a more exclusive way, to mean shakuhachi with absolutely no ji. They seem to be in the minority. I have consistently seen members of many different honkyoku lineages (in Japan) referring to shakuhachi with some ji in them as "jinashi". Of the makers with whom forum members may be familiar, John Neptune, Tom Deaver and Murai Eigoro have all referred to shakuhachi with some ji in them as "jinashi", and have confirmed that as the correct term when I have specifically questioned them about having some ji in. That was not in any way in order to imply that they had no ji. The term jinashi, (to them at least, and many others) simply does not generally mean "absolutely no ji". Incidently, Murai Eigoro is the maker who made most of the shakuhachi Okuda Atsuya plays, who seems to be a well known jinashi player for the US.

Kiku, you have told us that jimori was used in old sankyoku journals. Can you tell us the definition it had at that time? Can you tell us if it was defined as clearly being different from "jinuri"? Or perhaps it simply meant "shakuhachi with ji"?

Jimori seems to be a term not emerging from the general shakuhachi community, but rather an academic term coming from the university community, who are trying to make the term catch on, for some reason. I don't say whether that is bad or good. If people feel there is a need for more categories, then it may be a good thing. Then also if this strict definition of jinashi (as meaning totally no ji) is something which the academic community is trying to impose on the shakuhachi community, I will not say whether or not that is good, but it may be better to be clear that that is the case. But if you will give an official "definition" of the term, it may be better to explain the actual definition as observed from the shakuhachi community, i.e. the word in use, rather than a definition you would hope for, or a minority definition. Or, at least, you could explain the context of the definitions you list.

Even if you want the people reading the forum to have the same definition as the one you use, I believe they should be informed about the usage of these terms in the Japanese shakuhachi community. Even if you believe the common usage to be a mistake.

As a point of interest, with your definition of "jimori" I think you will find that you can easily differentiate between what you have defined as "jinashi" and what you have defined as "jimori", but not easily differentiate between what you have defined as "jimori" and "jinuri/jiari". The distinction between "jimori" and "jinuri/jiari" will be a subjective one, as there is nothing to clearly differentiate them, so far as I have understood. Perhaps that was Riley's point about "how many grams?"

Anyway, Kiku I'm glad you are accepting at least that they are all shakuhachi now. It was only a few years ago that you wrote
"From my own experience, I can say that playing the hocchiku and shakuhachi
demands very diffrent breathing techniques. I have only played shakuahchi in
teaching situations when I have to be in tune with the student's shakuhachi
and I feel like it's a totally different instrument. and I play the
shakuhachi very badly ( I got my first one about half a year ago).So, not
only is the sound different, but they are quite different to play as well.
Hope this helps a bit to understand the wonderful world of hocchiku, which
is still quite unknown, alonside the world of shakuhachi.
Love Kiku"

I think your recent statements are a great improvement. I have come across some people here in Japan also from some jinashi groups who refer to "shakuhachi" as a different instrument, and although I greatly enjoy those groups, as my friends, enjoy playing with them, and love their music, I have noticed that the strong differentiation actually leads to some hostility in feelings and attitude. It brings them closer to each other as a group, but at the same time pushes them farther away from the rest of the shakuhachi world. The result can be that "shakuhachi" players can actually experience hostility from them. That is a great shame. It also makes communication and sharing between them and the rest of the shakuhachi community more difficult and less probable. That is a great shame, because they have a lot to offer. Maybe, even there is a lot they could also gain.

I liked the funny bit about being a "jinashi player". Kiku, with that dab of ji, I guess we have to say you are a "jimori player" now.

Anyway, I like the sentiment that we are all playing shakuhachi. Well said. People will always enjoy classifying. Riley is probably right in saying the classification, if strict, should be consistent. As for the "real world", most of us can just sit back and see how the words are used. Or forget all of them, and enjoy the music.

This post means no harm at all. Some participation in the fun, and passing on my experiences to add to the pot. I'm not saying they are any more or less important than anyone elses.

Much love to you all
Justin Senryu

http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2009-05-08 13:12:49)

"Controversy sells" ... and this is an excellent thread.

Watazumi's and Atsuya Okuda's playing DEFINES what is appealing about shakuhachi/hocchiku to me. I guess that places me in the "jinashi camp". If I'm not mistaken, both defined their instruments (and style) based on the "jinashi" issue - in those terms or not.

Earlier Dr. Lee asked "What is Zensabo?"

Perhaps the answer/discussion of that question will shed light, at least on why the distinction is so important for self-indentified "jinashi" players.

How strictly or generally to Dokyoku players stick to hocchiku/jinashi style instruments in playing that repertoire?