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Tairaku wrote:
The solution to playing long flutes and being able to reach the holes is to use the fourth finger on the left hand to finger three hole and also using the pads of the fingers rather than the tips to cover the holes.
Thanks for the fourth finger (pinky?) suggestion. Do you move to that on the lower hand for the 1-hole at extreme lengths also? I've tried the pinkies but they also rotate the wrist/arm a bit and I haven't gotten used to it. But I see the advantage of more comfortable reach and I'll try it again on something in the san shaku range.
I use the fleshy section between the joints closest to the palm of the right (lower) index finger on flutes longer than about 2.4. Very comfortable for me. I can't/don't do that with the upper index finger though because I can't partial hole with the same sensitivity.
Then if all else fails, you can use your toes...
Back to offsetting holes... Here's a pic of a thumbhole I moved and was happy with the result. It's not a long flute (2.1) but it's fat at 125 mm circumference at that point and a 4 mm hole offset allowed my thumb to just rest where it naturally wanted to behind the flute for low-effort balance. (Yes, not putting the hole in the best place during first drilling was my novice fault! ) Obvious the pro makers can do a better looking job -- Perry and Al and others have pics of holes moved for comfort (and tuning). Sometimes they use contrasting colored plugs for fill.
-Darren.
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dstone wrote:
Tairaku wrote:
The solution to playing long flutes and being able to reach the holes is to use the fourth finger on the left hand to finger three hole and also using the pads of the fingers rather than the tips to cover the holes.
Thanks for the fourth finger (pinky?) suggestion. Do you move to that on the lower hand for the 1-hole at extreme lengths also? I've tried the pinkies but they also rotate the wrist/arm a bit and I haven't gotten used to it. But I see the advantage of more comfortable reach and I'll try it again on something in the san shaku range.
I use the fleshy section between the joints closest to the palm of the right (lower) index finger on flutes longer than about 2.4. Very comfortable for me. I can't/don't do that with the upper index finger though because I can't partial hole with the same sensitivity.
Then if all else fails, you can use your toes...
-Darren.
Yes the pinky. You also rest the shakuhachi between your thumb and forefinger rather than supporting it with your thumb as with a short flute. That goes for both hands. If you use your pinky and also do this it puts much less strain on your wrist than trying to use a conventional 1.8 grip on a 2.7 or whatever. At least it works for me I don't know what other people think about it. Actually Tilo Burdach said that's also what they do with kyotaku in the Nishimura Koku style. I don't use the pinky on my right hand.
About Al Ramos using his toes. Dan Mayers told me he saw Watazumi doing that so it's part of a distinguished tradition. I also went to Masakazu Yoshizawa's house and he had a long 3.6 which he used his toe on, but I could do it with my hand. Yoshizawa also made an amazing playable short flute which was about the size of a pencil. I was able to play "Kumoijishi" on it.
http://www.kokingumi.com/art.html
geni wrote:
Good advice,
You have LONG arms. What's the size of the flute in the picture?
2.7
Sometimes you see pictures of guys like Watazumi or Al Ramos playing a flute and you think it's a 3.7 or something and it's actually a 2.8. Of course Al and Watazumi would sound good even if they just blew on a piece of bamboo with no holes in it.
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I handed Al Ramos (no stranger to long flutes) a Kyomudo 2.8 jiari with no offset holes when he was here in Kumamoto last fall. Many of you may know Al...not the tallest dude in the world. He had no problems with reach or any other aspect of playability. Body size is obviously not the only issue when approaching a chokan and he is clear proof of that to me.
Jeff
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Does anyone here place your flutes so that the tip rests on something, either on ground or on some sort of table? I've found this to be a nice way to reduce the effects of the weight since you are basically just keeping the flute there. Unfortunately my 2.5 is just a bit too short that I could put the end on the floor while playing in seiza. I need to either put something like books there or to sit with my legs crossed which helps to get the flute slightly lower. I think that for a person that is around my height a 2.7 or larger should easily hit the floor in a good angle.
On the other hand, I could see there being a problem with something huge like flutes over 3 shaku. You'd need to actually raise the flute a fair bit and that might cause the blowing angle to be wrong. Anyone have experiences with playing really huge flutes while sitting in seiza? Do you just let the angle be what it is and compensate with your lips?
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Jeff Cairns wrote:
I handed Al Ramos (no stranger to long flutes) a Kyomudo 2.8 jiari with no offset holes when he was here in Kumamoto last fall. Many of you may know Al...not the tallest dude in the world. He had no problems with reach or any other aspect of playability. Body size is obviously not the only issue when approaching a chokan and he is clear proof of that to me.
Jeff
Unless requested otherwise, I like to keep holes inline up until 2.8 or so on wide shakuhachi. I like the consistency of inline holes when moving between different shakuhachi. There is also an orderly, centering, meditative playing quality to inline holes which I find satisfying. Sometimes I place the 5th hole slightly off center.
radi0gnome wrote:
In fact, in the beginning when I got frustrated with not being able to cover the holes well enough sometimes I resorted to playing with the fingertips, but I couldn't keep that up for very long because I experienced too much discomfort.
On long shakuhachi, I use the same grip and fingering for both hands. Fleshy ring finger first pads on holes #1 and #3. Wide, fleshy third pads (nearest to the hand) of index fingers on holes #2 and #4. Both thumbs support the flute on the medial side. The #5 hole is covered with the side medial knuckle of the thumb. There is little, if any, bend to both wrists. Both hands are fanned outward and comfortable. It takes awhile to get used to 4th and 5th hole fingering. I don't know anyone who uses this fingering style so I can't necessarily recommend it. What I can recommend is whatever fingering you adopt for long shakuhachi, don't to be too quick to judge the results. It's amazing how one can adapt with practice and an open attitude. It really can be done!
KL
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Hi All,
I'd like to start out by saying, " I LOVE CHOUKAN!"
OK, that being said, they are more difficult only by handling, not by blowing. It takes the same amount of breath to make a sound as it does on shorter flutes.
Here is a 3.1 recently made. It is 38" long. I can finger it fine but because Hole #1 is way down there, I can't meri to my delight. The bottom hand and arm is extended to it's fullest length which locks down any vertical movement of the flute. As a result, my head can not bend down.
I also usually use my pinky on the Hole#3 on long flutes but when they go past 2.9, I offset the thumb hole and then use my ring finger on #3. When an extremely long flute is locked in place, the top hand is forced into a harder angle (maybe only in my case). Switching back to the standard hand position on top in this case straightens out that wrist. This means #3 is extremely offset.
In related news, here's a photo from a reconstruction I did recently. A previous owner plugged the bottom hole and drilled a new hole so that it was reachable. I plugged his hole and opened up the original hole.
The player of this flute needs not only a long arm but fat fingers.
Namaste, Perry
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Jeff Cairns wrote:
I handed Al Ramos (no stranger to long flutes) a Kyomudo 2.8 jiari with no offset holes when he was here in Kumamoto last fall. Many of you may know Al...not the tallest dude in the world. He had no problems with reach or any other aspect of playability. Body size is obviously not the only issue when approaching a chokan and he is clear proof of that to me.
So true, Al plays flutes that seem "too long" for him without effort. He gives lessons on flutes up to at least 2.9 without issue.
I'll tell you something else about Al... I'm sure every smart player does some warm-up beforehand, but he's like a kung fu coach when it comes to disciplined and thorough warm ups and stretches at the start of each lesson, before any blowing starts. Full body, neck, arms, legs, etc. and lots of focus on hands, wrists, fingers, tendons. Same for any length of flute, but then if we reach for a long flute, everything is warm and relaxed and circulating and it's just the smart thing to do.
If you buy into chi/ki schools of thought, circulate chi down the arms and out through palms and fingertips before practicing on a long flute and see if it doesn't feel great. Hot, happy, relaxed hands. Practicing when hands (esp. tendons and sheaths) are subject to tension and movement but they're cold (either due to circulation or environment) is unhealthy, in my opinion.
amokrun wrote:
Does anyone here place your flutes so that the tip rests on something, either on ground or on some sort of table? ... On the other hand, I could see there being a problem with something huge like flutes over 3 shaku. You'd need to actually raise the flute a fair bit and that might cause the blowing angle to be wrong. Anyone have experiences with playing really huge flutes while sitting in seiza?
All relative to height, obviously, so I'm 5'11" (180 cm)... I prefer to practice in seiza and at 3.2 in length I can start to rest the flute on the floor but it's not necessary. I have some difficulty with techniques that require large head movements (e.g. furi or any exaggerated meri/kari movements) when the flute rests on the floor. I think this is my own obstacle though, because I see other players do it and pivot quite easily with very good sounding technique. More practice...
-Darren.
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Yungflutes wrote:
Hi All,
In related news, here's a photo from a reconstruction I did recently. A previous owner plugged the bottom hole and drilled a new hole so that it was reachable. I plugged his hole and opened up the original hole.
http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/michael9.jpg
The player of this flute needs not only a long arm but fat fingers.
Namaste, Perry
Hey Perry, is that flute by Neptune? I think it used to be mine. I miss her, send her back to me.
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dstone wrote:
Jeff Cairns wrote:
I handed Al Ramos (no stranger to long flutes) a Kyomudo 2.8 jiari with no offset holes when he was here in Kumamoto last fall. Many of you may know Al...not the tallest dude in the world. He had no problems with reach or any other aspect of playability. Body size is obviously not the only issue when approaching a chokan and he is clear proof of that to me.
So true, Al plays flutes that seem "too long" for him without effort. He gives lessons on flutes up to at least 2.9 without issue.
-Darren.
Sure Al can play those long flutes, in fact I have a sweet goma 2.9 he made. Very cool.
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Tairaku wrote:
Yungflutes wrote:
Hi All,
In related news, here's a photo from a reconstruction I did recently. A previous owner plugged the bottom hole and drilled a new hole so that it was reachable. I plugged his hole and opened up the original hole.
http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/michael9.jpg
The player of this flute needs not only a long arm but fat fingers.
Namaste, PerryHey Perry, is that flute by Neptune? I think it used to be mine. I miss her, send her back to me.
G'day Tairaku! Yes, it's one of John's. But, now she belongs to a shakuhachi teacher and performer. I don't think you'll get her back
You don't know how many times I've heard that line and from so many players. Proof that tastes change, or at least goes in circles. Never give up a shakuhachi unless you really need the cash, or, unless you're allergic to it.
Namaste, Perry
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I began practicing with a 2.4 on my own 6 months ago. If someone else is in doubt about beginning with a long shakuhachi, I would say GO FOR IT.
If you consider buying a flute from the internet test the reach of your hands. You can make a quick prototype of a 2.4 from a plastic tube. Just mark the place of the holes over the tube with a pencil and experiment with different fingerings over it. Then shift the position of the holes to match a 2.6 and repeat the process.
With my medium sized hands, I had no problems for covering the holes of a 2.4 but a 2.6 seems impossible for me.
I use pinky fingers of both hands. Using ring fingers puts to much stress on my wrists and finger joints.
During practice, I sit on a chair and rest the edge of the flute over my right knee. I can play as long as I want without any pain in that position. (Anyone else doing this?)
If im not sitting, I rest the flute over the v shape betwen right thumb and index finger.
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Hi Amokrun.
Just saw this thread here now.
amokrun wrote:
Does anyone here place your flutes so that the tip rests on something, either on ground or on some sort of table? I've found this to be a nice way to reduce the effects of the weight since you are basically just keeping the flute there. Unfortunately my 2.5 is just a bit too short that I could put the end on the floor while playing in seiza. I need to either put something like books there or to sit with my legs crossed which helps to get the flute slightly lower. I think that for a person that is around my height a 2.7 or larger should easily hit the floor in a good angle.
I rest all my flutes on the floor from around size 2.4... surely 2.5. That is one of the reasons for why I sit cross legged. I begin to sit in seiza when playing 2.9.
amokrun wrote:
On the other hand, I could see there being a problem with something huge like flutes over 3 shaku. You'd need to actually raise the flute a fair bit and that might cause the blowing angle to be wrong. Anyone have experiences with playing really huge flutes while sitting in seiza? Do you just let the angle be what it is and compensate with your lips?
With longer flutes, I will sit on something to raise myself up. Then you can keep the same angle position of the utaguchi.
barokgs11 wrote:
I began practicing with a 2.4 on my own 6 months ago. If someone else is in doubt about beginning with a long shakuhachi, I would say GO FOR IT.
My first shakuhachi was a 2.3. Yes, the problem is not so much the length... but usually I wouldn't recommend too long flutes for beginners.
One of my students fell in love with a Mujitsu 2.2 and bought it. She struggled for a little while, but now she is fine!
I play up to 2.9 with holes drilled in straight line. From the 3.05 I have the holes slightly offset.
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Kiku Day wrote:
I rest all my flutes on the floor from around size 2.4... surely 2.5. That is one of the reasons for why I sit cross legged. I begin to sit in seiza when playing 2.9.
I think the range of flutes from something like 2.3 to maybe 2.7 or so are problematic for me because they are too short to rest on the floor while I'm sitting with my legs crossed and yet a bit hard to play if I hold them up. I often play the 2.5 I have without resting it against anything or sometimes by leaning it against my knee. Neither is really ideal. To rest it on the floor I'd had to actually bend forward quite a bit. Thankfully it's a fairly light flute and can easily be held up for longer periods of time.
I'll have to get a longer instrument at some point to try out how that would work for me. My experiences with 2.5 seem to suggest that I'd be most comfortable with a 2.7 or above depending on how far my fingers stretch.
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amokrun wrote:
I think the range of flutes from something like 2.3 to maybe 2.7 or so are problematic for me because they are too short to rest on the floor while I'm sitting with my legs crossed and yet a bit hard to play if I hold them up.
I know what you mean. It was not before I got my first 1.8 (after 14 years of playing, that I got a problem in my arm... from carrying it). I first thought that it was very ironic to get problems, when I finally began playing the standard size. But now I am used to it, so to a degree it is a matter of training the muscles.
When playing the 2.3 and at times 2.4, I do, like you describe, sometimes rest it against my leg. Not through a whole piece though. It is not ideal because you twist your body a little, but if you do it being conscious about relaxeding, you are twisting your body less than playing the traverse flute.
Ahem... my new signature is... very interesting!
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Kiku Day wrote:
When playing the 2.3 and at times 2.4, I do, like you describe, sometimes rest it against my leg. Not through a whole piece though. It is not ideal because you twist your body a little, but if you do it being conscious about relaxeding, you are twisting your body less than playing the traverse flute.
I find that I don't have to twist myself much at all to rest the flute against my knee. It's basically just a matter of turning my head to the side slightly and then sort of raising and pulling back one arm to get the flute to lean that way. Rest of the body can easily stay still and it doesn't feel much different from sitting straight. Whenever I have to read notation for a piece I end up playing somewhat like that anyway and thus it was never a huge problem.
Kiku Day wrote:
Ahem... my new signature is... very interesting!
Reminds me of a forum I used to frequent years ago. At one point someone came up with the great idea of making the forum display my name differently whenever it was typed somewhere. The name given to me was absurdly long and contained about twenty words or so. It was pretty amusing until five minutes later someone came up with the great idea of making a post with my name repeated over and over in the title. The resulting name took a couple of pages of space to display right thanks to the forum diligently swapping every single instance with that long list of words. No more than five minutes later my old name was returned.
ps. Who do you need to bribe around here to get an amusing title?
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some Bombay Sapphire will do the job;-)
Last edited by geni (2007-12-05 14:35:37)
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amokrun wrote:
ps. Who do you need to bribe around here to get an amusing title?
You just go to your profile and add a signature. Since you are in Finland maybe yours can be, "Sibelius didn't write no honkyoku!"
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geni wrote:
some Bombay Sapphire will do the job;-)
If Bombay Sapphire is going to be the answer to all questions, we won't really need to log into the forum anymore--and we may not be able to read it if we do.
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