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#1 2008-01-19 01:27:45

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Kikusui shakuhachi?

I just saw a picture of what must be the most beautiful shakuhachi I've ever seen. How ironic is it that it seems to be a strange mix of bamboo, wood and what appears to be cast iron or something similar. For a picture, check out Nyogetsu's site at http://www.nyogetsu.com/flutes.html and pick the very first instrument, the 3.1 Kikusui. I went through a few searches and found that there are many such instruments and they are usually made out of wood by using glue to tie two halves together and then somehow attaching a bamboo root-end into the mix. It also appears that 3.1 is fairly common length with these since it came up several times.

Does anyone have any additional information on the topic? Do these things play well? How do they sound? It looks to me like this particular instrument at least is fairly thin for a 3.1. In fact, it doesn't seem much thicker than your average 1.8 would be. How about the materials? Does the wood make it sound any different from your average bamboo shakuhachi? I tried to look at the picture but couldn't figure out where the bamboo starts. How is the root-end attached in any case? Is it just glued at the end of the instrument or is there some more complicated mechanism there?

I seem to have read somewhere that the people who play these form a school of their own. Any idea what they generally play? Also, are there any smaller instruments like this or are they all at the 3.1 range?

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#2 2008-01-19 10:13:54

Seth
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From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

A few years ago I was lucky enough to be in Kyoto during the 100th anniversary of the Meian temple shakuhachi gathering.   Basically this is an annual event in which individuals, and teachers and their students, perform shakuhachi in the Meian temple long associated with shakuhachi playing.  (I am sure many people on this list can give a far better and more precise description of what this event actually means - so my apologies for this meager explanation.)

At the gathering there were perhaps a 100 or so different performers and most everyone was dressed very traditionally and beautifully.   Which means it was as much a visual event as it was musical.  (I actually have a few photos which I will try to post later.) 

So at the event there were these three older men with long flutes that looked very much like the one linked to above.   The men were very impressive looking.  They had beautiful long flowing robes with what must have been many yards of layered shimmering fabric.   And they wore tall hats that to my western eyes looked like an elaborate pope's hat.   In short, they looked truly awesome.

So with great flourish they took the central part of the floor to perform for everyone and there was total concentrated silence in anticipation of the music these flutes would produce.

The head man took a deep breath, blew away and... there was no sound at all.  For several minutes they blew, and once in a while I heard a hint of a note here and there, but overall the men and/or the flutes proved more decorational than functional.   

Obviously this is not a useful evaluation of the flute in question, but it is still an interesting anecdote.

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#3 2008-01-19 10:19:35

amokrun
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From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Seth wrote:

So with great flourish they took the central part of the floor to perform for everyone and there was total concentrated silence in anticipation of the music these flutes would produce.

The head man took a deep breath, blew away and... there was no sound at all.  For several minutes they blew, and once in a while I heard a hint of a note here and there, but overall the men and/or the flutes proved more decorational than functional.

The interesting question here is, was it a planned thing that was supposed to go like that or did something go wrong. I could think of various things that could go wrong in such event. On the other hand, it could have been some sort of planned thing that symbolises the meaning of focusing on the blowing over results. Either way, it does sound quite strange. Problem with stuff like this is that you can't easily tell between deliberate and accidental failure.

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#4 2008-01-19 11:46:52

Seth
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From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Since the gathering was at a temple the event did place greater emphasis on shakuhachi as a spiritual tool as opposed to being a musical instrument. 

This led me to understand that the greater value was on their intention and focus, rather than their ability to actually produce music. 

But hey, for me the most enjoyable part of the event was that I had so little understanding of what was going on.

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#5 2008-01-19 14:43:21

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Great story Seth. And no.......I don't think they were trying NOT to make a sound.

Kikusui Kofu was an interesting Myoan player who was a true missionary of the shakuhachi, a hero. His speciality was making PVC and wood shakuhachi so that poor people and prisoners could afford to play shakuhachi. He taught in the prisons and had many students. You can hear his playing on the famous Lyrichord LP and CD with the komuso on the cover.

Back to the flute. I played the flute you are asking about Matti and like Seth's robed dudes, it looks great and sounds,...................um sad.

I have two Kikusui flutes, a PVC which is really nice and a wooden one. I will try to post some pics in this topic soon.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2008-01-19 16:26:40

amokrun
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From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

Back to the flute. I played the flute you are asking about Matti and like Seth's robed dudes, it looks great and sounds,...................um sad.

Are we talking about "tuning is slightly off" kind or "Is this thing leaking air" kind of um? Could you, say, play some easy piece with it and someone could actually tell what you are playing or is it just lost cause to do anything but blow Ro one out of five times? This thing looks so lovely that I feel that it deserves to sound nice as well.

Tairaku wrote:

I have two Kikusui flutes, a PVC which is really nice and a wooden one. I will try to post some pics in this topic soon.

Please do. Are they as decorative as this one? What really caught my attention is the amount of detail in this flute. It almost seems like more time went into making this instrument look great than actually getting it to play well. I'm personally a big fan of instruments that look wonderful and I believe that playing a beautiful instrument adds to the experience even if beauty technically has nothing to do with the sound. I've seen some really lovely instruments with brush-painted scenes or poems on them. Somehow I find that a flute like that goes from being just another pipe that produces sounds to an unique piece of art.

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#7 2008-01-19 16:50:38

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

OK here are my Kikusui Kofu 1.8 (Paulonia wood) and 2.5 (PVC) Myoan shakuhachi.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/Kikusui18and25.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/kikusuiinscriptions.jpg

Do any of you Japanophiles know what the inscriptions say?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2008-01-19 17:05:37

jeff jones
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Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 113
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

I never thought a plastic flute would look beautiful before, but that's probably because of who made it. Those are really beautifull


Beauty is ugly at rest

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#9 2008-01-19 17:15:17

amokrun
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From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Ergh, not the easiest question. I'm not at home right now and have no dictionaries with me. The plastic shakuhachi looks a bit like the upper kanji could be "sui" as in water. Only problem being, it's mirrored from how "sui" should look. It isn't exact match but given how it matches the name I would still bet that it is the same kanji.

The other character reminds me of the shape of "ka" hiragana. I'm too tired to check what kanji that character is based on but I keep thinking that it should be a radical. Someone who actually knows what he is talking about should be able to get that one.

The wooden shakuhachi is a different matter altogether. I love cursive style and I'm trying to learn to do it myself. That said, in my opinion, cursive is often a write-only style meaning that it's sometimes damn near impossible to tell what something says. Especially if you are like me and just act like you know something. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if the signatures in both of the flutes would be the same or at least contain same characters.

Someone care to take it from here? I can do my best to figure it out tomorrow when I wake up.

Tairaku wrote:

OK here are my Kikusui Kofu 1.8 (Paulonia wood) and 2.5 (PVC) Myoan shakuhachi.

... you mean, that flute is made out of wood? All this time I was writing "bamboo this, bamboo that" only to notice that part. Does it have a real root-end attached or is that just carved?

ps.

How does the 1.8 play? I assume these are Myoan-like flutes, so I guess we are talking about more silent and gentle than your average Kinko flute.

Last edited by amokrun (2008-01-19 17:16:42)

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#10 2008-01-19 17:19:18

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

jeff jones wrote:

I never thought a plastic flute would look beautiful before, but that's probably because of who made it. Those are really beautifull

It's the most satisfying plastic flute I have played. It has a distinct musical personality. I like PVC flutes, there's a lot of chikuin in them. The bore on this one is tapered and the bell is flared, which add to the "real" nature of the response. It also has a nice joint which you can see towards the top, so it's not nobe. Seems to me there's quite a bit makers could do along these lines. Someone (I think maybe Dan Soergel?) experimented with adding false "nodes" by putting rings around the node points in the hopes that some of the regular shakuhachi principles might apply. PVC is cheap, plentiful, malleable and easy to work with. A friend of mine, Mark Stewart (plays cello and mando with Paul Simon) makes all kinds of outrageous reed instruments out of it that look like science experiments.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2008-01-19 17:23:11

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

amokrun wrote:

... you mean, that flute is made out of wood? All this time I was writing "bamboo this, bamboo that" only to notice that part. Does it have a real root-end attached or is that just carved?

ps.

How does the 1.8 play? I assume these are Myoan-like flutes, so I guess we are talking about more silent and gentle than your average Kinko flute.

Yes it's entirely carved from Paulonia and made to look like bamboo. It plays and sounds like a fair to middling Myoan 1.8 which means you can play Myoan honkyoku but it's not good for gaikyoku or shinkyoku.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2008-01-19 17:26:20

amokrun
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From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

Seems to me there's quite a bit makers could do along these lines.

I wanted to try this project out about a year ago but got nowhere due to lack of materials (ok, actually it was laziness in looking for them). I also can't help but to think that plastic flutes might work decently well with some effort. Typically most makers do them as their cheapest option which obviously translates to less time spent on them in comparison to bamboo instruments. No point in spending a lot of time figuring out how to best utilize plastic when you could spend that time in improving your skills at making the real things.

I'd love to try out various things like grinding the bore to make it less smooth or coating the bore to see if that makes any difference. Worst case scenario, they'd make for decent hands-outs once I run out of bamboo flutes to pass to interested people.

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#13 2008-01-19 17:30:26

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

Yes it's entirely carved from Paulonia and made to look like bamboo. It plays and sounds like a fair to middling Myoan 1.8 which means you can play Myoan honkyoku but it's not good for gaikyoku or shinkyoku.

I read somewhere that these things are made by attaching two pieces together with glue. Is the split very visible on the flute? From the top picture it looks exactly like a bamboo flute. I never much cared for the way that most wooden flutes look with the root looking like it came out of a lathe. This is by far the best-looking wooden shakuhachi I've ever seen. Amusingly enough it actually looks more like bamboo than many bamboo flutes do. I can't say anything about the skill of this maker as far as playability goes but he is definitely an artist. I am really glad that I happened to ask about this.

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#14 2008-01-19 17:33:31

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

This is carved out of one piece of wood, with no joinery. You can follow the grain around the flute. Pretty good piece of carving.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2008-01-19 17:43:58

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

This is carved out of one piece of wood, with no joinery. You can follow the grain around the flute. Pretty good piece of carving.

Uh, I guess you could use the term "pretty good". I'd use another term but I'm not entirely sure which one yet. This flute is simply amazing. I find it rather interesting that someone who makes flutes out of what could be considered as lesser material puts so much time and effort into making them look this way. I'd love to see more of his work. If he really did make flutes for the poor, surely there must be plenty more of these in some collections somewhere.

Thank you for taking the pictures and going through the trouble of answering all these questions.

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#16 2008-01-19 18:42:32

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

For the wood one it looks like a stylized form of Dragon.

Now for the plastic pipe not sure of the first Kanji but second one is also a stylized form for Wind.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#17 2008-01-19 20:22:53

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

1st one is dragon. The top of the 2nd is Matsu "pine".


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#18 2008-01-19 21:40:01

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Kikusui shakuhachi?

chikuzen wrote:

1st one is dragon. The top of the 2nd is Matsu "pine".

Wood flute is Dragon 龍
The plastic pipe is 松風 in this one both Kanji are the short form.
Thanks to Chikuzen Sensei for the Matsu Kanji!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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