World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat
You are not logged in.
All true--they are interdependent, but you can change the effects of the chimney heights by how they are undercut--Monty calls it 'tuning the impedance of the holes'.
That may be, in fact, why the work needs to be done on the holes in the Yuu, since the chimneys are so radical toward the bell end relative to a 'normal' flute.
Last edited by edosan (2008-01-22 21:43:34)
Offline
fouw wrote:
Will a Bombay Sapphire Dry Martini taste better when taken in through a bamboo straw or through a plastic straw?
Aw man don't mention the curved end on some plastic straws with the wrinkled choke point!
Or would it just all come down to the drinker's embouchure and ability to suck?
LOL An excellent question which I'll leave to the Bombay Sapphire Dry Martini experts.
Zak -- jinashi size queen
Offline
Finally, we come to a question truly worth pondering....
Last edited by edosan (2008-01-23 10:31:24)
Offline
Infidels! You don't drink a martini with a straw! That's for girlie drinks! Something you're obviously more familiar with.
To counter with another sarcastic shakuhachi metaphor: what's most important about the martini is which bartending school you attended and who taught you how to make the martini and gave you your bartending license. Not the gin, the glass or the way you drink it!
Offline
Last night I was at a corporate dinner.
Lo and behold I ended up sitting next to a senior engineer in charge a large manafacutring facility. We were talking about his work, which, I was really excited to learn, includes overseeing injection molding for small plastic parts.
I told my colleague about our discussions about shakuhachi, materials, and my private theory that with the right budget and materials one should be able to mass produce master shakuhachi.
His response was very interesting.
Specifically he said:
1) To create a reliable mold that would allow one to reproduce shakuhachi exactly with no manual involvement would cost around $300,000. And this would not include labor costs for actually creating the untis themselves.
2) Surprisingly, he was very skeptical that any plastic could ever reproduce the sound of bamboo exactrly. He understood the theory that the empty space should determine the sound - but he said resonance of materials is actually a big issue in his field for many building materials for lots of reasons, and he stated flatly that no two materials are alike. (Apparently how materials vibrate is an issue in certain manafacturing situations.)
So for me this was a satisfying end to this whole issue.
Apparently manafacturing high-end plastic shakuhachi will just never happen for $ reasons, and it may very well just be impossible.
And btw, we drank an awesome beer called: Allagash Dubbel. So much better than ANY martini.
Offline
Seth wrote:
And btw, we drank an awesome beer called: Allagash Dubbel. So much better than ANY martini.
Allegash is from my neck of the woods, up here in Maine -- try the Allegash Trippel, and in summer the really wonderful Allegash White (esp. with lemon).
Offline
And besides, beer is FOOD!
eB
Offline
Seth wrote:
Apparently manafacturing high-end plastic shakuhachi will just never happen for $ reasons, and it may very well just be impossible.
That's a pretty typical startup cost figure for almost any fancy injection-molded item. Perhaps you could grind up a bunch of bamboo and mix
it into the plastic matrix Get that resonance dialed in JUST right (huh, Tairaku? You listening?).
eB
Offline
edosan wrote:
Seth wrote:
Apparently manafacturing high-end plastic shakuhachi will just never happen for $ reasons, and it may very well just be impossible.
That's a pretty typical startup cost figure for almost any fancy injection-molded item. Perhaps you could grind up a bunch of bamboo and mix
it into the plastic matrix Get that resonance dialed in JUST right (huh, Tairaku? You listening?).
eB
I am ALWAYS listening, sort of like God!
And as a matter of fact Inoue Shigeshi commercially marketed a set of shakuhachi which were fascinating. They were 3 piece. They had a universal utaguchi section and universal "root end". The 4 middle sections were cut for 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, and 2.0. And it was made of bamboo composite material. Very good product, much better than the Yuu or wooden shakuhachi. Of course Inoue is a great maker and the 2.0 at least was very respectable and the other lengths decent. I have a set but it's in my office. When I get it I'll take a picture and post it. The set marketed for around 100,000 yen, I believe.
We (Taimu brain trust) did some research into that injection molding concept to create working class Taimu but ran into the same concepts Seth refers to in terms of $$$$$$$ and gave up on it. Also because as others mentioned it would require hand finishing anyway, so why not use bamboo? It appears the best and least expensive way to make shakuhachi is still by hand.
I used to drink Allagash when I lived in NYC. It's a respectable Belgian style ale.
Offline
fouw wrote:
I'm off, injection molding to the shape of my stomach a Laphroaig (never had a martini in my life)
Cheers, Kees
Bravo! Just had one two days ago. Laphroig is about as far from a girlie drink as you can possibly get! Love it!
Offline
fouw wrote:
Tairaku, if you loved Laphroaig, try Ardbeg cask strength next time!
An advantage of plastic flutes is the blowing end doesn't get that peaty smell.
Shall we move this to the food thread?
Kees
I had some of that recently. In fact the Tasmanian Whisky Society recently had an Ardbeg tasting, which I couldn't attend but the organizer gave me a private tasting of several Ardbegs.
Regarding the smell. I once got one of the personal flutes of a very prominent Japanese maker/player (who shall remain nameless until I publish my memoirs) and the thing REEKED of beer and cigarettes for quite some time.
Offline
see http://www.shakuhachizen.com/tone.html
for several sonograms and sound files of jiari, jinashi, plastic and metal flutes. They look more alike after some gin, or a belgian ale. There is no such thing as a bad belgian ale, through straw or straight style. Several Europeans told me putting a lemon or lime in a beer is for the ladies, too. ;)
Offline
Tairaku wrote:
edosan wrote:
Seth wrote:
Apparently manafacturing high-end plastic shakuhachi will just never happen for $ reasons, and it may very well just be impossible.
That's a pretty typical startup cost figure for almost any fancy injection-molded item. Perhaps you could grind up a bunch of bamboo and mix
it into the plastic matrix Get that resonance dialed in JUST right (huh, Tairaku? You listening?).
eBI am ALWAYS listening, sort of like God!
And as a matter of fact Inoue Shigeshi commercially marketed a set of shakuhachi which were fascinating. They were 3 piece. They had a universal utaguchi section and universal "root end". The 4 middle sections were cut for 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, and 2.0. And it was made of bamboo composite material. Very good product, much better than the Yuu or wooden shakuhachi. Of course Inoue is a great maker and the 2.0 at least was very respectable and the other lengths decent. I have a set but it's in my office. When I get it I'll take a picture and post it. The set marketed for around 100,000 yen, I believe.
We (Taimu brain trust) did some research into that injection molding concept to create working class Taimu but ran into the same concepts Seth refers to in terms of $$$$$$$ and gave up on it. Also because as others mentioned it would require hand finishing anyway, so why not use bamboo? It appears the best and least expensive way to make shakuhachi is still by hand.
I used to drink Allagash when I lived in NYC. It's a respectable Belgian style ale.
Interesting quote about the composite Bamboo Shakuhachi.
As a matter of fact standard 1.8 all the way up to 2.3 are still available made from composite Bamboo. I played one last year and was very satisfied with the sound resonance etc. As far as I am concerned they feel look and play like some of the 1000 up to 1500 flutes you can get from Mejiro plus they are made of bamboo. Also I noticed that unlike wooden Shakuhachi those have a real inlaid buffalo horn utaguchi. If anyone is interested I am still able to get my hands on some of those in the 1.8 range at 625$ U.S shipped.
I feel they are the best alternative so far right after the Yu in price range.
Offline
Gishin wrote:
As a matter of fact standard 1.8 all the way up to 2.3 are still available made from composite Bamboo. I played one last year and was very satisfied with the sound resonance etc. As far as I am concerned they feel look and play like some of the 1000 up to 1500 flutes you can get from Mejiro plus they are made of bamboo. Also I noticed that unlike wooden Shakuhachi those have a real inlaid buffalo horn utaguchi. If anyone is interested I am still able to get my hands on some of those in the 1.8 range at 625$ U.S shipped.
I feel they are the best alternative so far right after the Yu in price range.
Good news Gishin. Is there a website for these?
Offline
Yes there is but it is only in Japanese and they only sell to Shops and music stores all over Japan. They are also the maker of most of the wooden flutes also on the market amde in 3 different type of woods.
If you want pictures I will send them later on.
So I am trying to get setted up and sell those myself outside of Japan anytime soon. I feel they are one of the best alternative since #1 They are made of bamboo #2 The bore is 100% Ji Nashi the only thing in there is the Urushi #3 No cracks will occur on these since they are of the same strenght as Bamboo flooring.
Mejiro used to sell those also quite a while back but they dont seem to sell them anymore. Maybe due to the fact that for half the price they are as good as what their lower end flutes are.
Offline
Gishin wrote:
Yes there is but it is only in Japanese and they only sell to Shops and music stores all over Japan. They are also the maker of most of the wooden flutes also on the market amde in 3 different type of woods.
If you want pictures I will send them later on.
So I am trying to get setted up and sell those myself outside of Japan anytime soon. I feel they are one of the best alternative since #1 They are made of bamboo #2 The bore is 100% Ji Nashi the only thing in there is the Urushi #3 No cracks will occur on these since they are of the same strenght as Bamboo flooring.
Mejiro used to sell those also quite a while back but they dont seem to sell them anymore. Maybe due to the fact that for half the price they are as good as what their lower end flutes are.
Very cool. I would be interested in trying one of those.
Offline
Gishin - I would like to see photos; also the japanese web site; the language is not a problem... I think I have seen these before; perhaps on Mejiro's site.,,,
Offline
My sonograms on my website comparing jiari, jinashi and PVC were quoted in a previous post. I'd like to point out that these were made under the influence of the famous Irish elixir, Guinness!!! There is great scope for a study of shakuhachi tone under the influence of various beverages. Drink has a profound influence on the sound and response of shakuhachi and far exceeds the influence of the material used.
Offline
Tairaku wrote:
And as a matter of fact Inoue Shigeshi commercially marketed a set of shakuhachi which were fascinating. They were 3 piece. They had a universal utaguchi section and universal "root end". The 4 middle sections were cut for 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, and 2.0. And it was made of bamboo composite material. Very good product, much better than the Yuu or wooden shakuhachi. Of course Inoue is a great maker and the 2.0 at least was very respectable and the other lengths decent. I have a set but it's in my office. When I get it I'll take a picture and post it. The set marketed for around 100,000 yen, I believe.
Here's the pic, shakuhachi porn fans!
Offline
Tairaku wrote:
Here's the pic, shakuhachi porn fans!
Very interesting.... for a while now I have taken to calling the habit of trolling the internet for photos of shakuhachi as "looking at shakuhachi porn."
Did the picture above make my pupils dilate, speed my heart beat and make my breath fast? Yes, it did.
But it is really a terrible habit which I am trying to stop. In the longterm it is underming my relationship with my main 1.8.
Offline
Hi Gishin,
These bamboo composite flutes, do they essentially simulate a jiari sound? If so, do any come in 2.7 or 2.8? At some point I would like to try a 2.7 or 2.8 jiari type flute, as a counterpoint to my 2.8 taimu. As near as I can figure it, the cheapest root end jiari type out there is Monty's, which is around $1400 or so (as I do not count the tiger bamboo, non root end kind he makes). Then again, I don't know much, and have never tried a jiari of that length, but I sure would like to try, and this type of flute you mentioned sounds intriguing
Offline
Lorka wrote:
Hi Gishin,
These bamboo composite flutes, do they essentially simulate a jiari sound? If so, do any come in 2.7 or 2.8? At some point I would like to try a 2.7 or 2.8 jiari type flute, as a counterpoint to my 2.8 taimu. As near as I can figure it, the cheapest root end jiari type out there is Monty's, which is around $1400 or so (as I do not count the tiger bamboo, non root end kind he makes). Then again, I don't know much, and have never tried a jiari of that length, but I sure would like to try, and this type of flute you mentioned sounds intriguing
For now those laminated bambo flutes are made from 1.3 Shaku up to 2.3 Shaku only.
Now for the Jiari comparison I would have to say that they are near the Jiari ball park BUT for a standard Jiari they do have a lot of vibration and honk in them and are well balanced and easy to play (My opinon is that they play like any 1000$ to 1500$ generic Bamboo made flute you could get from Japanese makers). Maybe this is due to the fact that they are made of 100% laminated bamboo and that the only stuff put in is the coat of red urushi. So in a way when it comes to bamboo I would have to say that they are in a class of their own. It is also surprising that they never got any attention as of yet on the market. As far as I know the were around when I started 10 years ago.
Offline
thanks for the info Gishin, as always you are a valuable source of good info. thx
by the way, if you are ever visiting montreal, please look me up
Offline
Actually I work in Montreal and go there 4 times a week so we can meet up sometime or when the Dojo is opemed in St-Jerome (45 minutes from Montreal) you can come and practice there.
Offline
that would be awesome, as I have been only playing the solitary, alone path. Shaman141 also lives in montreal (south shore), is a very decent guy, and has given me a couple of pointers in person. I didn't know you worked in montreal. I do too (for the time being), up on Pins around McGill.
Will the Dojo include shakuhachi? How long does it take to get to St-Jerome by public transport? Practicing in a Dojo would be incredible.
Offline