Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Seth wrote:

But I am not sure if the pain is due to the extra weight, or just due to me getting' older.

Is the heavier shakuhachi just as easy to produce notes on? It's a common tendency, even if you've played for a while, to clamp down harder if a note's not coming out easily. Also, are the finger holes cut identically? I'm just trying to rule out other variables with that question.

I doubt age would be much of a problem unless you're developing arthritis or something. How long is "for years"? If it's 30 or so I guess it could be an effect, but the difference of 5 or even 10 years in age doesn't seem likely to be very dramatic, particularly since you're takling about a 1.8 that has finger holes that fall naturally right under the fingers.

My main instrument is a Ken LaCosse 1.8 non-root end student model with a diameter of about 1.25"  It's very comfortable for me.  I recently bought a Yuu for travelling, and it's about 1.5" in diameter and substantially heavier, very similar in weight and feel to my Monty student 1.8.  And I have discomfort in the joint of my right thumb.  I think it's mainly due to the greater weight, but might also have something to do with the larger diameter.  I try to drop my right elbow a bit to support the weight along the bones of the hand and arm and avoid isolating that joint so much, but I'm not sure if that's helped much, or if I'm just getting accustomed to bearing the greater weight.  It's been a couple months now and doesn't bother me anymore, but what you describe sounds exactly like what I went through.

Yooper-

Yeah, our problems sound alike.  My problem is that the pain in the joint is sill lingering... hence my questions.

Karmajampa-

Yes, I have had that experience as well.  But this time around the problem seems to be sticking around -even as I type this post a full ten hours or so since I last picked up a shakuhachi. 



Anyone know the normal range of weights for 1.8s?  What is considered heavy?  Light?

Anyone find relief from such a problem y moving to a lighter flute?

Within reach...

1.8 Kurita  PVC (maybe ABS) plumbing pipe 162 gram
1.8 Ichijo  just taken from its box at 80% humidity  385 grm
2.4 David Brown, tasmanian tiger myrtle (if I recall correctly) 455 grm

When I first played the ichijo, it felt heavy to me, but at that time my primary flute was the Kurita.

I will get pain even when playing a light weight flute. Most usually in the lower hand thumb area. This is accentuated with heavier and/or very long flutes, but I feel relief when I lighten my grip. However, I can only lighten it so far before opening the hole !
I am almost 56 years young, and can't deny I do feel my body is not as forgiving as when I was a lad.
I know that if I don't attend to this issue I will develop RSI, which is probably what you are starting to feel Seth. When the pain is revisited when doing other activities.
You may benefit from massage and pressing the acu-pressure point between the thumb and index finger, but often it requires rest or total refrain from the activity that is causing the pain.

Kel.

My Yuu weighs 419 grams.  It's a tripple-beam balance.  If it's zeroed correctly it _should_ be reasonably accurate.

FWIW

Clarinets, which weigh more than most shakuhachi all have a thumb rest on the back.  It seems like anybody with grip or weight issues could rig up something that would not damage a shakuhachi.  Some plastic hose clamps from the hardware store come to mind readily.  Good for experiments, but not very attractive.

I have seen small pieces of adhesive weatherstripping on the back of a flute or two.

edosan wrote:

Insight #1: Everything is due to getting older.

Amen, brother.

I tore up the dorsal tendon of my right middle finger early in January, doing nothing more hazardous than tucking a blanket under a futon.

Either I'm getting older or making up a bed is a far more dangerous activity than my mother led me to believe.

nomaD43 wrote:

Seth,
I have been playing my 1.8 Jiari (by David Duncavage) for nearly 15 years - though not anywhere near as regularly as I should or would like to - and when I play for an extended period of time (15 years ago that was 45 minutes to an hour - now it is 15 -20 minutes) I find that I get a pain in my forearm and hand - bottom hand - which I am sure is more due to the pressure I am exerting on the flute than from weight or age. I also, now have several other shakuahchi - 2.0, 2.3, 2.4 of different weights (I don't have a scale to see how heavy they are) but the 2.0 jinashi is significantly lighter than the 1.8 and I will still experience the pain.
I believe this is more due to the downward pressure I am placing on the flute and trying to counter the weight of 8 fingers with two thumbs - actually 1 really. This may be your problem as well. How much does your flute weigh with your two hands and eight fingers holding back that light stream of air - I'm sure mine weighs close to 10 pounds at times.
Besides, there is an ancient saying "no pain, no gain". Maybe a few helium balloons tied to the fingers will help us all.
Damon

Damon-

As I have been paying more attention I have observed that this is exactly what I am doing.  Especially in challenging strings of notes I am pushing the flute hard into my face which of course exerts tremendous pressure on my hands.

I am assuming that only pro-longed practiced mindfullness will help to overcome this problem...but if anyone knows a faster way please let me know.

thanks
Seth

Seth wrote:

What is the 'normal' weight range for 1,8 shakuhachi?

Do people with hand pain or aches experience less problems with lighter flutes?  What would  be the range of 'light' flutes?  How much lighter does a flute need to be to alleviate a problem?


I have a 400 gram instrument that I think is causing me pain.  For years I played with a 300 gram instrument and did not experience any problem.

But I am not sure if the pain is due to the extra weight, or just due to me getting' older. 

Any advice, insight, relevant anecdotes to share?

Seth,
    Having dealt successfully with this very problem, I think I have some insight. Particularly regarding the right thumb. At one point I began to develope a strain pain in my right wrist and over time it progressed up my arm and into my shoulder. I continued to "play through the pain" but I knew I could be permanently injuring myself and I knew of more than one person who could no longer play due to this type of injury. Finally, on a day where I felt what I describe as a hot burning river going from my wrist to shoulder I knew I had to do something. First,  I stopped playing for 6 weeks to give it a chance to heal. Now here comes the key part.
      I believe that all instrument injuries are caused by some muscle or muscles working far harder than necessary. When I started to play again I had to become a tension detective. This is absolutely crucial because if you go back to your old ways you'll just be back with the same problem. At first I thought it was because of squeezing too hard between the thumb and third finger in each hand. Then I figured out that it was because I was pushing down too hard with my left 4th finger(re) which was putting a nasty bit of pressure on my right thumb. By eliminating that pressure the problem has not returned despite heavy practicing. I found that a more relaxed approach to the instrument affected my entire tone production as well. It is a incredible how much tension the body can hold that we are not even aware of and to become aware of it is the key to beating the problem. I don't think the weight of the shakuhachi is a factor at all.
                                Good Luck
                                      Jim

Thank you very much for all of this very practical advice.

I now have many concete action items.

This string is this forum at its best!

Thanks!

mrosenlof wrote:

My Yuu weighs 419 grams.  It's a tripple-beam balance.  If it's zeroed correctly it _should_ be reasonably accurate.

I have been using a digital scale for about 5 years. If it's weighing on the heavier side, I'll be bummed as I've been making postage labels with it!
Peace, Perry

I'll bet batches of the Yuu may vary in weight.

To check a scale, Wikipedia says a US nickel weighs 5 grams.  Maybe get a hundred of them...

A 1 yen coin is 1 gram, but I only have about 20 at home.