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#1 2006-03-06 22:03:06

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

3rd hole diameter

I have read instructions to make the 3rd hole smaller than the other hole. 9.5mm or 10mm with the others 11mm or 11.5

Can some light be shown as to the reason for this ?

I am making my flutes so far with all holes 9.5 with an average bore dia of 20mm. I find any pitch change with opening very small or un-noticable. Probably my limited experience. I like to play the 9.5mm hole and find an 11mm hole too 'fat', again probably my limited playing experience.

Certainly my flute making is benefited by my flute playing, and vice versa.

Thanks,
Kel    §


Kia Kaha !

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#2 2006-03-07 01:29:07

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: 3rd hole diameter

Karmajampa wrote:

I have read instructions to make the 3rd hole smaller than the other hole. 9.5mm or 10mm with the others 11mm or 11.5

Can some light be shown as to the reason for this ?

I am making my flutes so far with all holes 9.5 with an average bore dia of 20mm. I find any pitch change with opening very small or un-noticable. Probably my limited experience. I like to play the 9.5mm hole and find an 11mm hole too 'fat', again probably my limited playing experience.

Certainly my flute making is benefited by my flute playing, and vice versa.

Thanks,
Kel    §

Kel,

That is a very good question. I have some thoughts about this. These thoughts are based on personal experience without any historical confirmation.

One possible reason for the smaller hole #3 could be aesthetic. If the hole is smaller, it can be located slightly further from the root. Therefore, all the holes are closer to being equidistant from each other. If equidistant holes are desired, the adjustment satisfies this aesthetic.

(It's interesting to note here that the modern Tozan school does not use a smaller 3rd hole. Many of the older Myoan Jinashi shakuhachi do not as well. However, the Kinko school does)

Also, on some flutes, I've noticed that the 3rd hole area plays with slightly higher volume, presumably because of the physics of the flute. Since a smaller hole can reduce the volume, I've often wondered if this was also a reason for a smaller hole.

Again, these are only observations I've had along the way. I'd be interested to hear observations as well as historical information that others might have.

Ken

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#3 2006-03-07 10:04:02

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: 3rd hole diameter

Hi Ken,

Mujitsu wrote:

One possible reason for the smaller hole #3 could be aesthetic. If the hole is smaller, it can be located slightly further from the root. Therefore, all the holes are closer to being equidistant from each other. If equidistant holes are desired, the adjustment satisfies this aesthetic.

I hung out with Fujimoto Tatekawa a few times in Tokyo. He's a modern Tozan maker who makes fabulous modern flutes. His Chi holes are as large as the others. We we're talking about the Chi hole size once and he mentioned that Japanese liked things very orderly. The holes were placed in equidistant so it would look good. As we all know, most early flutes have an extremely sharp Chi as a result. And since a smaller hole means a flatter note, this explains why Chi is smaller than the others. Even then, it's usually still very sharp on the older jinashi flutes.

Here's a link to a flute I retuned for this specific reason - http://www.yungflutes.com/log/archives/ … ntiqu.html

Mujitsu wrote:

Again, these are only observations I've had along the way. I'd be interested to hear observations as well as historical information that others might have.

Ken

I always wondered if the Ou notes came about because they were constantly shading the note to make it flatter. And, Perhaps one day, an unidentified Komuso said, "Wow! I really like it when it's really really flat!",  then poceeded to write it into the Honkyoku.

Peace, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
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#4 2006-03-07 12:37:00

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: 3rd hole diameter

Yungflutes wrote:

Hi Ken,

Mujitsu wrote:

One possible reason for the smaller hole #3 could be aesthetic. If the hole is smaller, it can be located slightly further from the root. Therefore, all the holes are closer to being equidistant from each other. If equidistant holes are desired, the adjustment satisfies this aesthetic.

I hung out with Fujimoto Tatekawa a few times in Tokyo. He's a modern Tozan maker who makes fabulous modern flutes. His Chi holes are as large as the others. We we're talking about the Chi hole size once and he mentioned that Japanese liked things very orderly. The holes were placed in equidistant so it would look good. As we all know, most early flutes have an extremely sharp Chi as a result. And since a smaller hole means a flatter note, this explains why Chi is smaller than the others. Even then, it's usually still very sharp on the older jinashi flutes.

Here's a link to a flute I retuned for this specific reason - http://www.yungflutes.com/log/archives/ … ntiqu.html

Mujitsu wrote:

Again, these are only observations I've had along the way. I'd be interested to hear observations as well as historical information that others might have.

Ken

I always wondered if the Ou notes came about because they were constantly shading the note to make it flatter. And, Perhaps one day, an unidentified Komuso said, "Wow! I really like it when it's really really flat!",  then poceeded to write it into the Honkyoku.

Peace, Perry

Thanks for the story Perry. It makes very good sense. It's interesting to see how conventions evolve.

Kel-
As long as you are happy with tuning, volume and aesthetics, it makes sense to create holes to your liking.

Since we're on a form/function topic, and if you'd like to open up a can of worms, here's one hole size plan designed to satisfy function:

On some flutes, depending on bore size, the volume from tsu up to hi increases with each note. One way to adjust for this volume discrepancy is to make 'tsu' (hole #1) the largest. Then, make each ascending hole slightly smaller. (Of course you'll have to change the placement slightly for the correct pitch) Flutes don't always follow this volume pattern. However, it can be interesting to be aware of volume along with pitch so you can juggle adjustments when the situation arrives.

Ken

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#5 2006-03-07 16:58:31

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: 3rd hole diameter

There are some interesting comments here.  I am at the beginning of my (hopefully) life-long journey with the shakuhachi.  One thing I have noticed with almost all the flutes I have played (only about 4 or 5) is that Chi is always sharp.  I am starting to consciously meri this note a little to get it in tune.  If this is correct, then flute makers face a dilemma.  Do they stick with the uniform placement and uniform size, and let the player compensate, or do they produce a more playable flute that is in tune with a uniform embouchure?

Speaking for myself (and I am not a maker), I would adjust the holes to get it in tune.  After all, makers of long flutes see no problem with placing the holes ergonomically - it becomes part of the design aesthetic as well as essential for playability.  Why not make the best sounding flute you can, and let the form flow naturally from the function?


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#6 2006-03-07 18:24:56

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: 3rd hole diameter

Chi being sharp when all holes same size.....yes, I have noticed that on a few of my flutes, which has put me in a spin !

The original observation was from a "Blowing Zen" diagram.

When you are saying "to narrow the hole is to flatten it, conversely to widen it is to sharpen it", are you actually saying "to raise the top side of the hole is to sharpen it", or are you saying the overall hole diameter increase will sharpen it ?

I will be putting this to test on my next few flutes, that is, wider holes 1,2,4,5 and narrow 3. It may take me a few to notice anything.

One more question, 'do you find the wider hole easier to partially cover than a narrower hole ?'  Again I will observe this for myself but am interested in any personal view.

Thanks,
Kel     §


Kia Kaha !

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#7 2006-03-07 19:38:40

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: 3rd hole diameter

jumbuk wrote:

Speaking for myself (and I am not a maker), I would adjust the holes to get it in tune.  After all, makers of long flutes see no problem with placing the holes ergonomically - it becomes part of the design aesthetic as well as essential for playability.  Why not make the best sounding flute you can, and let the form flow naturally from the function?

I think that is relative. Within modern ideas of tuning, many older shakuhachi can be thought of as playing with a sharp Chi. Most modern makers make the adjustment to suit the modern players. However, take John Singer for example. John is an accomplished player who plays many different Edo and Meiji period shakuhachi. For some honkyoku phrases, he says that it makes it easier to play when Chi is in it's older, "sharp" tuning. The point being that there is some overlap here of playing styles and tuning ideals.

Karmajampa wrote:

When you are saying "to narrow the hole is to flatten it, conversely to widen it is to sharpen it", are you actually saying "to raise the top side of the hole is to sharpen it", or are you saying the overall hole diameter increase will sharpen it ?

I will be putting this to test on my next few flutes, that is, wider holes 1,2,4,5 and narrow 3. It may take me a few to notice anything.

One more question, 'do you find the wider hole easier to partially cover than a narrower hole ?'  Again I will observe this for myself but am interested in any personal view.

If the top side of the hole is raised to diameter = x, it will sharpen the note a lot. If the hole is enlarged all the way around to diameter = x, it will sharpen the note a little. If the hole is enlarged towards the rootend to diameter = x, it will sharpen the note slightly less.

I usually prefer larger holes. I like the control, feel and overall playability when there is more to work with. Sometimes, I enjoy smaller holes when the tone of a flute is particularly sweet.

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