Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Hi Zakarius,

With honkyoku there is the prototype of the piece. Then there are all the variations that come about through the expression of the player. Then there is the notation.

The notation is not a photograph, it's a map. Not everything is or should be there.

Good players play the same piece differently upon their mood, time of day, flute etc. You can hear this in Jin Nyodo's recordings for example where he has recorded the same piece more than once.

Even if you are learning the song from a recording it's probably not a good idea to try to imitate the recording slavishly. In fact there's too much of that going on which is why you can hear so many duplicate CD's with different peoples names on them. In particular a lot of people are imitating Watazumi's improvisations as if they are songs. You may as well copy Charlie Parker solos. This is one of the problems of using recordings as references.

So while you are frustrated that's probably the way it should be because the notation does not represent the entirety of the transmission of a piece.

Hey Zak, Ni Hao.

Zakarius wrote:

o   you hear a recording that you fall in love with only to learn the piece and have your teacher constantly say that the way the piece should be played differs greatly from the way it is played on the recording (sometimes even having been recorded by your own teacher that way)...

Yes, this reminds me of the time I studied Choshi with Akikazu Nakamura. I sort of had the reverse problem. He was using Yokoyama's notation but kept reminding me to not play it as written. Then he played it differently (slightly) at every lesson. I wasn't frustrated, but more curious.

o   you end up losing interest in a piece in its entirety and/or partially lose interest in practicing because you don't like the sound of the piece as you've been taught compared to the recording which made you fall in love with the piece in the first place...

I would say that since you have a Sensei, you should drink deeply from the well. In just a little more time, you will be amazed at what that solid foundation can do for you as you start to interpret. It's like being able to swim freely in the ocean (of traditional music).

Thanks ahead of time for any thought-provoking responses

Zak -- jinashi size queen

I know how it feels to swim in the pool

Be well my friend, Perry

Well, here's two cents from a "rogue" player. I started playing in about 1979, so I have a few years behind me, and I lived and studied in Japan for about three years.  I  have also run a Sacred Music Festival here in Vancouver for four years, so the whole subject of Tradition is close to my heart.
The way I see it, we need those who love the Tradition and make a constant effort to learn it faithfully and keep it alive. We also just as much need those who, on a basis of a deep knowledge of the Tradition, are striving to create new forms of expression and a new evolution within that Tradition.
Nothing is ever static and the fundamentalists will forever fight about what belongs and what doesn't, what's the "right" way and what's not. The fact is that there is no such thing as a "pure" music. Culture is fluid.
  My method has been to simply develop my technique so that I can express myself freely, and chose to "echo" any style that appeals to me. I can't relate to "losing interest in a piece". If you have a score (a very beautiful object in it's own right) nowadays you can go to Itunes and download probably at least half a dozen versions of it. I find it eternally fascinating how much freedom and beauty comes through comparing all of these, and it simply seems to grant me the freedom to find my own way with it. I also go into an obsessive cycle of listening to one or two pieces, until I feel I have them internalized (not in detail but in spirit and shape). Then it's just a matter of sitting, emptying myself and letting it come through, and then picking the technical challenges and practice a lot. and so on and so forth...
   A teacher is a great blessing, and we always owe them respect and gratitude, but if long term you are feeling discouraged and losing interest, maybe it's the wrong teacher for you (which is no judgment on him/her). On the other hand, a teacher can always give you valuable information and guidance, and it's our own responsibility to keep our passion and thirst for knowledge and inner freedom alive.
  Ultimately, far as I am concerned, the only "correct" way to play a piece is with all your heart and soul, after having put in some serious time developing both your Technique and your Being. If those elements are in place, don't ever worry about the fundamentalists and their rants. The Practice of Shakuhachi should never be about what anybody else says. Find the place where all the "should's" disappear. Simply become each note that you play. How can You be "wrong"?.
And finally... don't forget to have Fun!. When all else fails breathe and keep your sense of humor. The Universe is Big!. And here we are, these little creatures in this tiny planet with our little pieces of bamboo worrying so much about how to play this one note.
I look up at the Sky and just Laugh...
Blessings...

Hi Zak, guess I started playing about the same time you did and walked against the same 'problem-door'. It's some work, but I learned much by just writing down the score like I heard (and liked) it and then comparing with the score I got from my teacher. Normally then I start to understand the differences and see a pattern. At least I can ask very precise questions, when I have a lesson. When I can play it right, I forget about the scores, take my time and let it grow in my own system. Then it becomes just like above said, no two days playing and sound are the same; depends of your mood, surrouding, etc. For me this worked to stop worrying, so I hope it will the same for you. Happy blowing, J.

Hi Zak
That's interesting. So it seems like the version you heard from the recording is not your favourite because you prefer it according to your artistic taste, but simply because you heard that one first. I know that feeling too. You learn to love a piece, and then you hear it a different way, and it is not what you EXPECT. You have grown accustomed to the sequence of notes, you have great anticipation for what is coming each next moment. And that is exciting. And also comfortable. Like hearing a familiar story over and over again.

One point is that, stories traditionally (across the world) were told over and over again. And we as humans have some natural tendency to appreciate that. But traditionally in most cultures these stories would be told a little differently each time. The base is the same, but the story teller has a certain degree of freedom. That's the same as playing music I think. But the CDs have habituated you into a new expectation, one of conformity, where each time you hear the piece, it is the same. I'm sure that if you had only heard those pieces live each time, you would appreciate their varying nature.

So, we have a condition of kind of the opposite of beginner's mind. With a beginner's mind, everything is fresh. There is no expectation. One is open to what is arising, with a fresh mind. I think if you want to broaden your range of appreciation, the thing to do is to return to this beginner's mind.

How to do that? I think you have accomplished the first step - you have realised "I've always hated hearing songs performed in a different way than what I became used to ". Contemplate that. Don't give yourself a hard time about it, but, when you get that feeling again of not liking the version of a piece, just take a step back, so to say, and contemplate this observation you have made, "I've always hated hearing songs performed in a different way than what I became used to ".

Then let yourself relax. Every time you hear a note which works against your expectation of the piece, just relax around that. Notice it, and don't push away any aspect of that experience. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, notice that. Even give that space too (I mean, let it exist too). No need to push anything away.

Every sound, every feeling, let it exist. And if you have actual thoughts about it (for example "I don't like this" or "I like this" or whatever), then notice them too but let them go. Don't go into them. That is, don't believe them. Notice them, and simply return to the sound.

Don't TRY to like anything. And also don't hold any idea about not liking anything. If a thought arises "I am this person who doesn't like ...", just notice that thought, and let it go. By the way, it is not telling any truth.

Space is open. Listen like space.

Best wishes

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-07-27 22:17:23)

Zakarius wrote:

What causes one to like one performance and not another?--It's all about being affected by the art, and some have a far more narrow range of appreciation. Any insights on how to broaden that range (if you feel it's important) would be excellent.

Zak -- jinashi size queen

Hey Zak,
You've given me an idea for the next Samurai Songs broadcast. This Sunday is going to be Empty Sky Day. I'm going to spin some dramatically varying versions of Koku. I've been doing that with one different Tsuru no Sugomori version each week. I call it 'Crane Song of the Week'
If you're interested, I think you're 13 hours ahead from Central Standard Time, 9am here - 10pm there, but check that! Anyway, 9am CST Sunday www.radiofreenashville.org three links for online listening..... I like different performances, besides, no one can play anything "exactly" over again anyhow.   -kerry

In terms of how you learn, shakuhachi is in some ways like jazz: you study the tradition for many years, getting secure in your understanding of the vocabulary, and then you have complete freedom to play. The freedom comes from a secure grounding in the tradition. When performing, I think most master shakuhachi players are working from a place of freedom, not of slavishishness to a score or to previous performances. (And as Kiku pointed out, a score is just a memory aid, not an exact picture of the way a piece "should" sound.)

However, in another way honkyoku is very different from jazz. It's based on the technical subtleties of one particular instrument more than on the relationships of pitch, scales, etc. In traditional jazz the instrumental techniques, ornaments, etc. are individualistic interpretations of an underlying theoretical structure; in honkyoku, the underlying structure is elusive and the exact nuanced playing of specific techniques is what makes up the music as a whole, the underlying unity of it (from player to player) as well as its individual ever-changing expression in the moment.

Many traditional jazz players studied their instruments in pretty ordinary ways, with the school band teacher or some old piano teacher down the block. They then went on to apply the techniques they'd learned to the structure of jazz by listening to records and live performances. This is possible in jazz, because you can HEAR THE THEORY, for instance the relentless II-V-I progressions, the head-chorus-bridge structures, etc. etc. But I don't know of many good players who learned their basic instrumental TECHNIQUES simply by listening to jazz.

In shakuhachi the instrumental techniques, some of them very subtle, ARE much of the music, and so it is very hard to learn simply by listening and copying. You can play a jazz standard adequately without a lot of technique,  and nobody can say you're not "playing the music." But a particular honkyoku piece may depend for its effect on a beautifully executed ha-ro or koro-koro -- the music doesn't exist independently of the detailed execution. In addition, the underlying pitch relationships and especially the temporal structures of honkyoku are not transparent as they are in jazz (there is no strong unified theoretical basis), so it's easy to misunderstand the music from a performing point of view, thinking something is an important touchstone to a piece when it's just a passing ornament, or vise versa.

This is why, I think, "learning shakuhachi" is different from "learning pieces." Learning shakuhachi is something that you do with a qualified teacher, and it takes years. "Learning pieces" is something you can do well after you're a master. And even then, to learn a piece from a different school you might want to contact a teacher in that school...

Jim Thompson wrote:

That's exactly what I was going to say.

Yeah!

Well, I wouldn't know as I haven't reached that kind of understanding, but I always find that Noykai's writing is amazing, both in style and in grasping the particularities of the issue at hand. I'm sure he is an amazing teacher!

Bravo!!

Very cogent comparison; I wish I had said it (or thought it).   I'm still at the pre-articulation listening stage...   Kochi had its 5th annual summer jazz night last Sunday night.  Four hours of jazz bands simultaneously playing 45 minute sets at six different drinking spots/music venues in downtown Kochi; everything from Duke Ellington to bop to Latin jazz and fusion; then an uchiage (celebration party) with band members in various combinations from 10:30 to 3 am in the morning.  It was a pretty cool event considering it was held way out here in Japan's inaka (countryside); all local players with just a couple of out-of-towners -  a pro sax player and a trumpet player who won the country's best amateur player contest both down from Tokyo; the few shakuhachi players present were just enjoying the music.  Luckily no one asked me to make a comparison between honkyoku and jazz that evening, though I was asked at one point if I was packing a shakuhachi...