Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

purehappiness wrote:

Isn't to be blowing zen to have no rules.

The association of "freedom" and "no rules" is quite interesting, and may be particularly Western. From what I gather, Zen training is extremely strict, full of discipline and rules. Honkyoku is certainly also based on rules. In general it seems that the traditional spiritual systems in Asia, including of course Buddhism, rely heavily on rules in order to train the mind. Quite often when we don't like rules it is simply the ego whining. The rules in Buddhism are sometimes employed to directly work against that, butting right up against the ego. In that case, running away from the rules, trying to be "free" from them is often the ego wanting IT'S freedom, which, is not freedom at all but just the security of the delusion it wants to maintain. In that case it is the rules which are there to help you break through the real chains, which are the chains of the ego, to the real freedom which is not lessened by any rules.

In terms of expression, it may be worthy to note that, for example, most, if not all humour relies on rules. Jokes are funny because of their relation to the rule-structure they are embedded in. Indeed, you can even make jokes in music, by placing certain notes in a "funny" position within the musical rule-structure. Then even for usual music, improvisation itself is full of rules. The only improvisation not relying on rules of music is "free improvisation", which is not bound by pitch-interval systems or rhythm systems. But aside from that, improvisation makes sense because of its relationship to the structure, the rule-system of the music. One of the most advanced systems of improvisation is in Indian music, again guided by many many rules.

Japanese music can be particularly rigid, in a way. It is full of rules, and some people complain that there is therefore no space for freedom of expression. I think the challenge is, to submit to the discipline, to master the rules, and to express through that.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

If you're improvising on a song that has words and a particular melody it's good to really know the melody and words and understand the meaning of the words. Then keep it in mind during your improvisation.

Regarding free improv, there are not many people who are good at it who are not also good at some kind of organized music.

Freedom and no rules in music are certainly not Western concepts despite we tend to think so if we don't really look deep into Western music.
In fact most Western music are just as rigid in rules as any Japanese music, Zen or anything.

Improvisation in Western music probably happened much more in folk music. In classical music organ music was the last resort of improvisation. The composer focus changed the role of the performer as an active agent in the music creation. As Norman Lebrecht write: Who killed classical music? (He is a British commentator on music and was co-editor of the Evening Standard. His writings on music is very interesting). The role of folk music has changed and the popular music today in the West do not have much improvisation either.
However, there are improvisation all around the globe. Look at Indian ragas, Iranian dasgar, Mbira music from Zimbabwe etc etc etc. But all - like anything else have rules or I rather call t some standards or frame that people are being creative within.

The avant garde free improvisation is not totally free either. A person like Eddie Prevost is a fantastic improviser - but that is also because he knows the rules of Western music so well. He was originally a good jazz drummer - and jazz can be extremely rigid - despite its aspect of improvisation. He played with Cornelius Cardew who was a composer - thus educated in the classical music system and together with a few others such as Keith Rowe they created AMM - an inspiring concept of musical creativity. However, Cardew got tired of the rigidity of avant garde improvisation too himself and created The Scratch Orchestra and called his music for 'people's liberation music'.
The problem with free improvisation - and Tairaku has mentioned several times that it is rare to find good free improvisers - is that people join in without a firm musical background. Everyone can create sound but without music knowledge only very few would be able to really add something to the music.
This is especially valid in societies in Europe, Japan, US etc where musicians are specialists. I experienced music creation several places in the world (for example on Fiji Islands or Zimbabwe) where everyone joined in in music making just as if they joined in in a conversation. A few particularly gifted musicians led the seance but... it was very touching to experience that everyone can do musicking in such 'natural' manner.

All this to say that it is important to know the musical system within which one wishes to improvise very well - whether it being 'avant garde non-idiomatic free improvisation' or any other improvisation. Practicing the tradition in a respectful but non-rigid manner (your attitude when playing) is a great way of learning to improvise. Wanting to skip the 'hard work' and go directly to improvisation is in most cases not a good idea. So, to go back to Seth's original question. Keep on practicing the shakuhachi repertoire and you will notice that more and more the means to make for example honkyoku more powerful in reaching the audience will be an integral part of your musicking. Hopefully you have a teacher who will instruct you. It is hard to say put more volume in the middle of this shape phrase and a little later on this shape phrase. Too many rules to remember. But when the repertoire has become a part of you - you have embodied the rules or the structure of the music, and then you will know how to do improvisation more efficient as well.

Good luck! The process is wonderful!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-02-10 04:00:29)

One pracical thing to do is this.
Find Improvs that you like. Learn them (as much as you can) Try to analise them.If you don`t know music noatation use a graphic score.Writte the shape of the improvisation (Up & Down).
Use colors also... There is no right or wrong with it, just  an exercise.

Geni

I've taught "improvisation" to hundreds of students and i always say the same thing....

Every time we talk, we improvise.  No 2 conversations are exactly the same.  To the untrained ear, it's just a bunch of random sounds made by the tongue, teeth, lips and vocal chords with no intrinsic meaning.  If you don't speak german, then it's just jibberish. 

but....  just because i memorized the english dictionary, doesn't mean that i can string together a bunch of random words...


dog table driving sky snow guitar slowly brown


that sentence made no sense whatsoever....even though every word was english, the syntax was wrong.   There was no "reason" to put those words together in that specific way.

Every piece of literature in the english language from Shakespear to a Spider-Man comic book uses the same 26 letters.  But after you get past the letters then you have words and then thoughts etc.....   It goes waaaaaaay deeper than just letters.

When it comes to "improvising" in a musical sense, if you don't have an incredibly firm grasp of the "syntax" of the instrument, then it's just gonna be a bunch of musical nonsense.


When we're speaking, we don't THINK about the rules of grammar with every syllable we speak, it just happens.  But that's because we already understand the rules well enough to be able to just let the free expression of our ideas flow together.   

Without that firm base,  it would be impossible. 

Jacques

radi0gnome wrote:

The problem is not that the non-musicians have no musical background, but that they preconceived notions about what is musical and lack appreciation for the musical sounds they can create. In a paid workshop setting, the problem participants will listen to the teacher/conductor and do what he or she says. They might not think the music their ensemble created was anything of interest, but they'll play along and accept the accolades of the teacher afterwards. Get them in a non-paying situation with a teacher/organizer that lacks the impressive credentials and you've got people who won't pay attention or follow any instructions and mess everything up.

I guess my point is that it's not the structured musical background that's needed for non-musicians to play good music, but simply some kind of affirmation that they can play good music. What I believe happens in non-structured music ensembles is that musicians use their years of training as the affirmation that they really can play, so when put in a situation where they have to throw all that training out the window they still do OK. So it may look like you need trained musicians to play that stuff, but what you really need is simply people who listen and play with intent. That takes some training, but not all that much, you could get it in a few days.

I agree with all this, Radi0gnome. Perhaps I should have explained what I meant with the 'non-trained' or 'firm musical background'. It is not virtuosic music skills that is needed - absolutely not. But rather the skills of having tried to be a member of an ensemble where everyone is equal - knowing  you are a part of a whole. The music does not get better by you alone shine - the music gets better by listening and responding. We are too trained to believe that music is for the few talented people. No, music is for everybody!
The arguments above may perhaps also be a part of the reason why Cardew created the concept of 'people's liberation music'.
They don't need that on Fiji Islands - yet.

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-02-10 14:43:18)

Says video not available. How long did Steve serenade you? He used to come over to my place and blow for 4 or 5 hours.

When I looked on your blog it didn't work but the direct link works. Yep that's Steve. Good sounds. He got that flute from me.

Kiku Day wrote:

Yeah, Steve is a lot of FUN ! ! !
He will be teaching at the European shakuhachi event in Leiden, Holland this summer!
Come on over!

Steve is a good example of a dude who plays great free improvisation but also knows how to play organized music. I was watching Nyoraku's young daughter and Steve came over and wanted to play the piano. I thought "great he's going to scare this girl with post-Cecil Taylor dissonance" but then he ripped out some fantastic Fats Waller stuff.

Both friends hung out for days on end.  They ate the same foods, dressed in similiar cloths, and did most things together.  One day they went to the amusement park together.  They rode many rides.  On the last ride, one of them puked while the other had the time of his life. 

I didnt think there were rules for personal improvisations, however if your playing with other people at the same time there could be rules to help regulate what and when people play and what notes they play and how they play them so that it sounds like they want it to sound collectively. 

I mostly play shakuhachi alone.  So I think the only rule for playing alone should be sincerity.  Perhaps if a person thinks they sound silly or bad would be because they arent being sincere enough in their playing.  It seems like when I am at my most sincere moments my playing rivals the gods themselves.  Now thats a cool feeling

Hi Guys,

nice to hear you talking about improvisation. I am not so good at Shakuhachi to improvise but I have a track on my Myspace-Site where I improvise with Xiao it is called "Micha Want Soul" just a simple reverb is added. I play Xiao since Dezember last year, I hope you will enjoy it!

Sweet Ji!  It looks like Horst's territory is being challenged.  I'm not sure the forum can handle this.

edosan wrote:

Nah, that dweeb doesn't hold a candle to Horst. Ain't fit to shovel out Horst's outhouse.

Jason or HIPPY?