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#1 2009-02-22 13:12:33

bmac78758
Member
Registered: 2009-02-22
Posts: 1

Playing flat

Hello,

Pardon this newbie question - I searched the forum but didn't see this asked before, so here goes:

First a little background...I have been playing for a couple years on and off. I certainly don't practice with any regularity. I mostly play for stress relief and casual enjoyment. I have a Monty L. 1.8.

I never paid much attention before to my pitch as I never played along with anything / anyone else. But now that I have tried it - it seems my 1.8 is pitched at C#/Db rather than D. Obviously every instrument is a little different, but I highly doubt Monty would sell one that was a full half-step flat. So that leaves me as the culprit....

What is the best way to get your pitch up? Is it an embouchure change, breath / breathing change or maybe a combination? 

( I know the best answer is "Go take a lesson, stupid!" but I would like to see what I can accomplish on my own first.)

Thanks for your help!

Bryan

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#2 2009-02-22 13:59:09

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Playing flat

Hi Bryan, I started as a flat player too and found (when I got to my best answer) that 1. I was holding the flute (rootend-part) to high and 2. pushed it to tight to my lips. Your reason to play flat can be different, so maybe the best answer really is the best answer.

Good luck,
J.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#3 2009-02-22 15:07:14

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Playing flat

Most of the times when playing flat, the problem is the air support. Play long notes with tuner in front of you. Try to keep the tone steady.

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#4 2009-03-02 09:57:53

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Playing flat

Looking down to read the notation may also contribute.  Try getting a cork board and putting the notation up on the wall to look at while you play.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#5 2009-03-02 10:00:43

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Playing flat

It's true that poor support is a common cause for playing flat, but 1/2 a step flat is pretty severe and I doubt you can be playing that flat by mistake. Doesn't Monty make a model that is tuned to around C#? Maybe that's what you have.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#6 2009-03-11 14:40:17

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: Playing flat

Oh, one can totally play flat by nearly a half step if one is not careful.  *points to self*  On the plus side, it gave me confidence in ro meris...

Getting one's pitch correct is a combination of flute position and airstream/embouchure.  I find that I can initially correct pitch with flute/head angle, but embouchure really solidifies the pitch (and improves the tone).

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#7 2009-03-11 21:50:20

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

axolotl wrote:

Oh, one can totally play flat by nearly a half step if one is not careful.  *points to self*  On the plus side, it gave me confidence in ro meris...

Getting one's pitch correct is a combination of flute position and airstream/embouchure.  I find that I can initially correct pitch with flute/head angle, but embouchure really solidifies the pitch (and improves the tone).

Monty's flutes, especially the 1.8s, are always dead on.

Absolutely right. It's quite easy to consistently play even more than a semitone flat. Bryan, as axolotl says, you've got to get a more focused airstream AND get your head more upright. What you're doing currently (and mostly, would be my guess) is playing with your head tipped down a bit, and/or your flute held too 'parallel' to the floor. At present, this is the only way you can get an agreeable sound, and by playing this way, you are reducing the size of the opening between the blowing edge (utaguchi) and your upper lip, ie, closing down the 'sixth hole' of the shakuhachi—playing in a constant, but unintentional, meri position. This is a very common situation for beginners (as well as for some long-time players, if they don't have a teacher to give 'em a whack now and then...).

I would suggest you play facing a mirror for a while. Try to get your head up, so you're looking directly into the mirror, at the same time holding the flute down closer to a 45 degree angle to the floor. The consequence of doing this, however, is that you're going to lose most or all of you sound, and be tempted to revert back to the old position. You've got to stay with it, blowing lots (did I say lots?) of long tones, as well as the usual stuff you like to play, but it's the long tones that are going to do it. In a way, it'll be almost like starting over again (in truth, it is).

The necessary air support will come, in time, but it's mostly about dialing in the embouchure, and getting a narrower airstream directed at the blowing edge, while keeping that 'sixth hole' open.

Last edited by edosan (2009-03-11 21:52:29)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-03-12 04:39:33

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Playing flat

edosan wrote:

Absolutely right. It's quite easy to consistently play even more than a semitone flat.

Then how come I have such problems bringing my meri's down that far? Even when I do get them down far enough it doesn't sound like a normal tone. I still find it hard to believe it can be done accidentally. 20 or 30 cents, maybe even 50 cents, yes, but a full semitone? Heck, I can't even get a full semitone down in kan. I know skilled players can do it, but we're not talking about skilled players here. I tend to play a little flat myself, but I've got to struggle to get a full semitone flat.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2009-03-12 10:14:40

YuccaBruce
Member
From: Tucson
Registered: 2008-07-06
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Playing flat

Eventually, if one plays flat enough, it gets sharp.
Don't Bflat,
Never B#Sharp,
Always B Natural.

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#10 2009-03-12 12:08:47

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

radi0gnome wrote:

edosan wrote:

Absolutely right. It's quite easy to consistently play even more than a semitone flat.

Then how come I have such problems bringing my meri's down that far? Even when I do get them down far enough it doesn't sound like a normal tone. I still find it hard to believe it can be done accidentally. 20 or 30 cents, maybe even 50 cents, yes, but a full semitone? Heck, I can't even get a full semitone down in kan. I know skilled players can do it, but we're not talking about skilled players here. I tend to play a little flat myself, but I've got to struggle to get a full semitone flat.

Continue the struggle....


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#11 2009-03-12 13:30:37

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Playing flat

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

edosan wrote:

Absolutely right. It's quite easy to consistently play even more than a semitone flat.

Then how come I have such problems bringing my meri's down that far? Even when I do get them down far enough it doesn't sound like a normal tone. I still find it hard to believe it can be done accidentally. 20 or 30 cents, maybe even 50 cents, yes, but a full semitone? Heck, I can't even get a full semitone down in kan. I know skilled players can do it, but we're not talking about skilled players here. I tend to play a little flat myself, but I've got to struggle to get a full semitone flat.

Continue the struggle....

You mean there's no magic solution and I've got to practice? Bummer...    smile




BTW, I don't mean to suggest that all things just boil down to "more practice", there are often a few tips and tricks for specific techniques that can help, but generally when I've found those and got a boost in the right direction it comes right back down to practice again. If anybody has any tips or tricks to try to help out deepening my meri's I'm open to hearing them. In fact it might shed some light onto what some of these people stuck in meri's they can't help are doing wrong.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2009-03-12 17:37:59

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

radi0gnome wrote:

If anybody has any tips or tricks to try to help out deepening my meri's I'm open to hearing them.

Long tone meri's.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#13 2009-03-13 03:49:04

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Playing flat

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

If anybody has any tips or tricks to try to help out deepening my meri's I'm open to hearing them.

Long tone meri's.

I've been hammering at these meri's for a good week or so now. By hammering at them I mean that's pretty much all I've been practicing. I already tried long tones, but I'm not sure if it does any good playing long tones on a weak note that's not being produced correctly. So, I tried some different approaches. Experimenting a bit more today I noticed that some jaw involvement seemed to help. Guessing I wasn't the only person to discover this I googled "shakuhachi meri jaw" to find this excerpt:

When meri-ing down follow meri with jaw going out - if you get it right you will get sound until you are in extreme dai meri. It might not be very loud but if you can 'track' the sound down with jaw out [and conversely on the way up] then you are doing well. It will take practice to get the jaw out far enough - at full dai meri the jaw joint may feel a bit stretched or tight. Keep at it. Try to relax everything else [as much as it is possible playing these things…]

I found that here: http://www.shakuhachisociety.eu/newslet … 202008.pdf It starts on page 3 and is from a long article titled "The Gentle Art of Meri".

I still find it hard to believe that people can get these notes by mistake.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#14 2009-03-13 12:34:11

indigo
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

Re: Playing flat

As an intermediate player in the purgatory of Gaikyoku, the meri kari dynamic is an endlessly challenging effort.

The single most productive practice for me has been practicing Re Tsu-meri Ro in kan and otsu without finger shading, with a tuner.  Achieving E flat without finger shading is possible on a 1.8 ( in the beginning it was as difficult as achieving Re kan pitch of G on a 1.8, thus: " try again fail again fail better" over and over.  Ri  U  Re is also an interesting effort without finger shading.

At the Big Apple World Shakuhachi Festival Kurahashi Sensei taught Kyorei with out finger shading.

http://sound.jp/mujuan/music.html (here are some of Kurahashi's computer font scores available for download)

Seems to be a tension-release, open-close game.

Now that I can make notes, noticing exactly where the air jet becomes air passing over the flute without edge resonance (making notes) becomes more and more interesting.  Kind of makes me long for those days when any note  from the shakuhachi was an achievement of many breaths and attempts as I try to find muraiki and no sound.

Last edited by indigo (2009-03-17 12:16:53)

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#15 2009-03-13 21:19:31

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Playing flat

I think that when approaching a meri note, one has to be conscious of a variety of things which have to be coordinated in order to sound the desired pitch and tone.  Above, it was mentioned that keeping the jaw 'out' and trying to play a succession of three notes such as re-tsumeri-ro is a good exercise without shading.  I think that this certainly can work, however as one progresses into and through the meri attack position, the jaw can also be mobilized to retract slightly, thus changing the angle of the air column as it leaves the lips.  No exaggerations are necessary here as a retracted jaw when overdone can also restrict airflow by closing the back of the throat.  At the same time a coordinated reduction of air pressure behind the lips is necessary along with the obvious closing of the angle of attack.
One respected player once taught in a workshop that when practicing meri notes, it is useful to exaggerate wildly the higher and lower extents of pitch production on any note.  Running a repetitive tateyuri pattern where the purpose is to progressively deepen and heighten the troughs and peaks progressively on every note is useful.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#16 2009-03-13 23:26:03

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

Here is another well done deconstruction of kari/meri technique that might be useful. From the website of Andrew MacGregor:

     http://www.japanworldmusic.com/karimeri.htm


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#17 2009-03-16 18:50:58

mysticalfairy
Member
Registered: 2008-07-25
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Playing flat

I posted this as a new thread and then saw this one....so thought I'd post here:

Hello,
     OK....so I just got my very first shakuhachi (a shakuhachi yuu) that i am very pleased with.  I can already produce sound as I have been messing around with a chinese Xiao for several months already.  I'm a bit puzzled though.  I bought a 1.8 with the fundamental note supposedly being D.  However, whenever I play the flute and I compare notes with my (in tune) piano, it clearly shows me playing a C as the fundamental, lowest note. 
      This puzzled me and at first I thought maybe I was sent a different sized flute, but I just measured it and it is indeed a 1.8.  Therefore, i assume that my natural position for placing the flute to my mouth is producing a two semitone meri on all notes.  Is that a plausible conclusion?
     I would certainly like to correct this, but am a bit stumped as to how.  I'm certainly underneath the skill level of *intentionally* producing meri and keri notes, so I'm not sure how to adjust my body to correct this.  Crazy.   I'm a natural meri master.

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#18 2009-03-16 19:49:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

mysticalfairy wrote:

I bought a 1.8 with the fundamental note supposedly being D.  However, whenever I play the flute and I compare notes with my (in tune) piano, it clearly shows me playing a C as the fundamental, lowest note. 
      This puzzled me and at first I thought maybe I was sent a different sized flute, but I just measured it and it is indeed a 1.8.  Therefore, i assume that my natural position for placing the flute to my mouth is producing a two semitone meri on all notes.  Is that a plausible conclusion?

Oh, yes, indeedy (Radio0gnome, are you listening? This would, I reckon, be proof positive...).

A teacher would help you the most on this, but, if you haven't already seen it, it might be useful to re-read this post, farther up on this thread:

     http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 796#p20796

The problem with being this sort of 'Meri Master', is that you'll never have any room to go DOWN in pitch (even if you're not trying to play in accurate
pitch, say, with another shakuhachi, or with koto). You're already there.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#19 2009-03-16 20:07:40

mysticalfairy
Member
Registered: 2008-07-25
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Playing flat

Ok, so I'm messing around more the last few hours taking advice from previous posts in this thread.  I thought I would  take the opportunity of my mistakes to elaborate and help out people who CAN"T do a 2 semitone meri.  I figure its all in relation to the angle I am holding my shakuhachi and the angle I am holding my head.  When I am producing a 2 semitone meri,  with my eyes looking straight ahead, my eye "line of sight" is directly parallel with with shakuhachi (i.e. looking straight down and parallel with the shaft).  In other words, if my head were held straight up, my shakuhachi would be parallel to the floor.  In actuality, this is not what I am doing.  I am holding the shakuhachi at about a 45 degree angle to the floor, its just that I'm tilting my head down about 45 degrees as well.  I'm assuming this is incorrect.  In proportion to my eye's line of sight, about what degree should the shakuhachi be held down?  As a general ballpark figure.........20 degrees?  45 degrees?  Any help is appreciated.

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#20 2009-03-16 20:42:28

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

mysticalfairy wrote:

Ok, so I'm messing around more the last few hours taking advice from previous posts in this thread.  I thought I would  take the opportunity of my mistakes to elaborate and help out people who CAN"T do a 2 semitone meri.  I figure its all in relation to the angle I am holding my shakuhachi and the angle I am holding my head.  When I am producing a 2 semitone meri,  with my eyes looking straight ahead, my eye "line of sight" is directly parallel with with shakuhachi (i.e. looking straight down and parallel with the shaft).  In other words, if my head were held straight up, my shakuhachi would be parallel to the floor.  In actuality, this is not what I am doing.  I am holding the shakuhachi at about a 45 degree angle to the floor, its just that I'm tilting my head down about 45 degrees as well.  I'm assuming this is incorrect.  In proportion to my eye's line of sight, about what degree should the shakuhachi be held down?  As a general ballpark figure.........20 degrees?  45 degrees?  Any help is appreciated.

Hello! Hello, mystical...which part of http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 796#p20796 did you fail to understand?

If you're not going to read what's offered, why should we bother?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#21 2009-03-16 20:52:22

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Playing flat

Okay mysticalfairy, place your elbows gently at the side of your torso.  Your upper arm should be close to perpendicular to the floor.  Now put the shakuhachi to your mouth with your head looking more or less straight ahead.   There should be little or no tilt to your head.  You may find it difficult to get a sound, so play around with lip/jaw position to adjust the angle of the air column as it leaves your lips. 
Also, another very common problem with beginners is not to produce enough air pressure to produce and maintain the desired pitch.  It's very possible to get sound at a very low air pressure, however the result is to lower the pitch without making other necessary adjustments.  Try pushing the air out from your belly with some force.  Does the pitch sound higher?  If so, this is where you need to be.  After that, it's practice, practice, practice...and try to find a teacher.  They'll help you out enormously.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#22 2009-03-16 21:28:29

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Playing flat

edosan wrote:

mysticalfairy wrote:

I bought a 1.8 with the fundamental note supposedly being D.  However, whenever I play the flute and I compare notes with my (in tune) piano, it clearly shows me playing a C as the fundamental, lowest note. 
      This puzzled me and at first I thought maybe I was sent a different sized flute, but I just measured it and it is indeed a 1.8.  Therefore, i assume that my natural position for placing the flute to my mouth is producing a two semitone meri on all notes.  Is that a plausible conclusion?

Oh, yes, indeedy (Radio0gnome, are you listening? This would, I reckon, be proof positive...).

Yep, I'm listening. Check it with a tuner. A brand new beginner's tone will probably be so windy it would be difficult to check by ear. I've tried playing with really weak support and angles as steep as I can and I still find it hard to believe beginners can reach even 1 semitone flat consistently and accidentilly. Of course, the goal is to play with good support so those notes are not only reached but sound good too. So, I'll concede that a very new beginner with poor support and accidentily using a meri head/flute angle could get a semitone flat, but I really doubt that it could sound good enough that they'd be thinking that they were playing correctly. Getting such a weak note would be so obvious a mistake that I seriously doubt that even a total beginner could be thinking that they're playing correctly. That would mean that there's no way they could be playing that way accidentily, in other words thinking the flute is sounding the way it's supposed to. 

  If I remember right, when I first doubted about a beginner being able to play a full semitone flat by accident, the context was someone who had been happily playing off and on for a few years. For the player to be playing that long without knowing something was wrong their tone would have to be somewhat OK in that they could hold onto the tone long enough to think they're producing the tone correctly. That's where I still doubt that a beginner could be playing that flat. Sure a total beginner might find that the first few peeps they get out of the flute might be very flat, but I sincerely doubt that anyone could think that a tone they could only hold on to for a second or so could possibly be right.       

So... I'm still not convinced.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#23 2009-03-16 21:44:33

mysticalfairy
Member
Registered: 2008-07-25
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Playing flat

@ Jeff....thank you for the extra information

@ Edosan....I read it all, but when you are learning a new topic sometimes you need to hear the exact same information repeated over and over in new words and ways, especially when written words are the only means of communication.  Just because you think you explained something perfectly, you shouldn't be offended that someone doesn't understand it.  Just looking for clarifications.

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#24 2009-03-17 00:15:00

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

mysticalfairy wrote:

Just because you think you explained something perfectly, you shouldn't be offended that someone doesn't understand it.  Just looking for clarifications.

Not in the least offended, just baffled.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#25 2009-03-17 00:17:17

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing flat

radi0gnome wrote:

So... I'm still not convinced.

So don't be.

Nevertheless, it's possible to play with great tone (yes, even with great tone) and play flat, flat, flat.

Besides, why would I make something like that up? Just so you wouldn't be convinced? Gimme a break.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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