Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Hi Kiku,

Thanks for your informative post. As ji-nashi and ji-mori shakuhachi continue to grow in the west, it can only help to clarify the differences. Thanks for helping to bridge the gap.

One question:  What is the terminology for a "ji-nashi" shakuhachi with an urushi coated bore but no paste dabs?

Ken

So , do i have this correct :

ji ari and ji nashi are antonyms

and

ji are ji nuri and ji tsuki are synonyms

Thanks

Tairaku wrote:

What about shakuhachi which are jinashi but have either pieces of other bamboo grafted onto them to adjust length, or a mortise and tenon joint to help with the tuning? Are there terms for that?

Hi Brian.

As far as I know there are no terms for jinashi with pieces of bamboo or wood or any other material grafted into them. I think terminology has so far been concerned with ji or no ji because that is what made a world of difference in shakuhachi so far. I wouldn't want to come up with new definitions here. So, the answer is no, according to my knowledge.

Tairaku wrote:

And I suppose that would disqualify them from being "hocchiku" because they are no longer nobe.
And jinashi flutes can be two piece, whereas "hocchiku" and "kyotaku" must be one piece, correct?

I don't really have a clear answer to that, Brian. And I wouldn't know whether these would disqualify as hocchiku/kyotaku or not.
Although I don't know whether Watazumi talked about that hocchiku has to be nobe-kan, I highly suspect, he would have said so.
As far as I know Nishimura did say kyotaku has to be nobe-kan.
So in a sense I suppose you are right. But I have never heard it directly apart from Nishimura students say this. But nothing about hocchiku. So, I personally wouldn't like to say yes or no to this.

What I also understood from one of Nishimura's very close students is, that he basically only regarded his own flutes as kyotaku. Most flutes made by even devoted students did not, according to Nishimura, qualify as kyotaku - this person told me. I thought this was very interesting.

Another interesting aspect is also, that I have met Mugai (a Watazumi student, who worked with him in making flutes) many times in the past. And he never called his flutes for hocchiku. I never got to meet him when I could have asked him why... as it is at least 12 years ago I last saw him and he, unfortunately, past away March this year. Whether he just didn't use that word because he thought I wasn't ready to hear about it or he just really didn't use this word, I will not be able to say.

Both the terms hocchiku and kyotaku are very personally associated with Watazumi and Nishimura respectively (although the latter used an old word already existing in literature). I would therefore not like to come up with what qualifies and what doesn qualify as hocchiku/kyotaku as I am not directly associated with the teachings of Watazumi and Nishimura. Since both Watazumi and Nishimura are not among us any longer, we probably would have to ask very close associates of these people to know or know better at least.

I think it is fine, if a person feels such a close association with Watazumi that he/she feels like playing a hocchiku or 'doing hocchiku'. However, to say this is a hocciku because... but disqualifies as ji-nashi may not have understood the word ji-nashi in the sense that 'ji-nashi shakuhachi' has anything to do with philosophy or the like. It simply describes the physical construction of the instrument - just the fact that there is no ji. That is why this word is pretty convenient if used in the sense of what the words mean. The other two words are more complicated because they almost need Watazumi and Nishimura to tell us all the time what they meant, including the philosophy and blowing technique.

So, to the question whether a 'nakatsugi-kan' (as the shakuhachi in two attachable parts is called) would qualify as ji-nashi?
It's a good question, Brian. I never thought about it myself as it is rare to see a nakatsugi jinashi. But they certainly exist (I x-rayed one a few month ago), and I see more and more 'ji-nashi' that have had the length adjusted by having been cut just below the mothpiece. Are they ji-nashi? Well, in the generic meaning of the word, as long as there is no ji in the bore, I guess they are ji-nashi.

Before I posted the first post here, I discussed terminology with professors Simura Satosi and Tukitani Tuneko. They both have amazing knowledge of shakuhachi - obviously far above mine. Especially Simura has specialised doing research into the instrument and is a player of ji-nashi shakuhachi himself. Most of what I posted has been discussed with them. I am writing this just to make sure nobody misunderstands, and think that I believe I am an expert. I felt like I had to ask people more qualified to write that post.

I think if we have a clear understanding of:

Ji-nashi shakuhachi = shakuhachi with no ji in the bore
Ji-mori shakuhachi = shakuhachi with ji added one or few places in the bore for adjustment
Ji-nuri/ari shakuhachi = shakuhachi with a bore build up with ji

Nakatsugi-kan = shakuhachi in two attachable parts
Nobe-kan = shakuhachi in one piece

we are not far off. We will always have shakuhachi somewhere in the middle of definitions. I guess we have to accept that.
If others have other opinions, it would be very interesting to hear.

I think if people with their hearts feel they are making a kyotaku or a hocchiku, then it probably is. I don't have anything to add to that. But I felt a need to clarify that ji-nashi means no filler and ji-mori is with a little filler.

Best,
Kiku

Thank you very much, Kiku, for sharing this information with us! I think that learning what these terms ACTUALLY mean will only benefit the shakuhachi community in the West. It is wonderful that you are so deeply researching the history, aesthetics, performance, etc., etc. of jinashi shakuhachi. It seems that people often through around these terms loosely without fully knowing/researching what these terms actually mean, especially the whole jinashi/Kyotaku/Hotchiku/Hocchiku thang. I look forward to hearing about the research and information you have gathered regarding these topics. Please continue to share this information with us. Keep up the GREAT work! Thanks again!

-Prem

Last edited by -Prem (2007-08-22 10:39:59)

Hi David.

david wrote:

I think the European kyotaku enthusiasts agree that there are very specific details which make a flute a kyotaku, like having 7 nodes and the bore must be lacquered.

I would say, having 7 nodes is not what characterises a kyotaku. It is a common notion in all shakuhachi types, that the ones with 7 nodes is special. Most 1.8 ji-nuri will be 7 nodes. Ji-nashi shakuhachi comes in many shapes and length as ji-nash is a big category. But many have 7 nodes. It is true that Nishimura said a kyotaku has to have 7 nodes. So, there is that notion, as you write, that it is not a kyotaku, if it doesn't have 7 nodes.
Also many ji-nashi shakuhachi are lacquered, so that is not a defining factor for kyotaku either, although you could argue that ji-nashi doesn't have to be lacqured.

A interesting thing about the kyotaku discussion is also, that Nishimura Koku himself only considered his own flutes to be kyotaku, and the flutes made by his students were not kyotaku. Later on he told his close student, Agar, that Agar's flutes could be considered kyotaku as well. Agar would then be the only maker of kyotaku, apart from Nishimura himself... according to Nishimura.

david wrote:

I also heard somewhere (I think I remember who, I will have to email him and clarify) that watazumi named his flutes hocchiku because that was the name of the type of bamboo that he used.

Watazumi used madake like all other makers post hitoyogiri. Well, I am sure many tried other types of bamboo, but no-one has, as far as I know, come to the conclusion, that there was a better bamboo for making shakuhachi, nor have I heard of anyone who preferred another type of bamboo. Many makers today experiment with other types of bamboo or madake from China. Watazumi experimented a lot. He also used laundry poles etc to make flutes (which may not have been madake). But as far as what I gather from students and people, who knew Watazumi personally, he used madake ji-nashi flutes, and VERY good flutes for concerts and recordings. He chose them very carefully for each piece, as far as I hear.

david wrote:

I was also wondering (since we are talking about watazumi) if any of the flutes he(Watazumi) has personally made are out there? Has anybody played any flutes made by him?

I have. But unfortunately only a practice flute, Watazumi made for one of his students. It was of the type, 'make a flute quickly from what-ever bamboo available'. But it played really well in comparison with how quickly it looked like it was done (very rough way of cutting the root end, the finger holes cut roughly and not filed down smoothly and not much work done to the bore etc).

I understand that Watazumi's daughter and son in law have kept most of his flutes, although there was somewhat an agreement about who should have received them when he died. That happens apparently quite often... Hopefully they keep them well.

Cool pic, by the way... a little like a Watazumi-pose!

Ryuzen wrote:

Another term that Watazumi-doso also used other than “hocchiku” was: “DOGU” (instrument/tool) which he used after he acquired title “doso” (priest of the Way). He wanted to emphasize even more that his instrument was NOT a performance instrument but a meditative, philosophical tool. In fact, he even mentioned in one of his writings that “it is not necessary to stick to bamboo” and that other materials will be used in the future.

And this is one of the wonderful things about the shakuhachi experience; the wonderful platform for exercising one’s imagination! All the great shakuhachi players created and are creating their own worlds/universes which are all incredibly beautiful, valid, all adding to the depth and breadth of the shakuhachi experience. And it’s available to each and every one of us.

Ryuzen - great post!

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-07-11 13:50:24)

Ryuzen wrote:

... All the great shakuhachi players created and are creating their own worlds/universes which are all incredibly beautiful, valid, all adding to the depth and breadth of the shakuhachi experience. And it’s available to each and every one of us.


Alcvin Ryuzen Ramos
www.bamboo-in.com

Thanks for sharing Al. I totally agree. This is how it was shown to me. And I'd like to add that even novices who enjoy simple blowing have created their own universes that are no less incredible.

I took a great advanced Vinyasa Yoga class yesterday morning and the instructor asked at the beginning of the class if there was anyone new to yoga. One person raised his hand. Then she said something like, "It's important  to keep in mind, and this is for everyone, that Yoga is not competition. The person next to you may have been practicing longer, they may be in a posture longer than you, deeper than you, but your experience is not any less meaningful."


Namaste, Perry

I'm not sure whether Agar was given permission by Koku sensei to call his flutes kyotaku, but I knew Agar some years ago and he called his personally made flutes kyotaku.

The part I was interested about was specifically that apart from Nishimura Koku, ONLY those made by Agar and are kyotaku. It would be interesting to know if this information came directly from Nishimura Koku. Kiku?

On the other hand, playing 'well' need have nothing to do with 'ego'. One can be a lousy-to-mediocre player and still be encrusted to the eyeballs with ego issues.

I also have known people who are able to keep ego well hidden under a featherbed of studied humility.

Last edited by edosan (2009-07-12 20:42:49)

Good one, Ed!

I have made a comment to my first post in this 'sticky' thread. This is to respond to some questions raised by Riley Lee.
It is by no means a satisfying response - I know. But a very short explanation here before I go into my 40 day meditation retreat. I will catch up with you on the forum after 25th July when I am back again.

Have a great summer and lots of shakuhachi playing!