Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Picking up on this 'oldie but a goodie' thread a question comes to me.
It appears that 'uri' refers to modulation rather than 'vibrato'. Is this correct ?

Being that the up and down movement would give a pitch modulation, vibrato, but the side to side movement is more subtle and though also gives some pitch modulation also seems to give volume modulation, tremelo. Though I think the utaguchi shape is going to have some influence here.

I am wanting to approach uri now that my blowing is stronger and Kiku's descriptions are very helpful, but I would also like to know a bit more regarding the type of modulation, I will listen more carefully to the recordings I have to hear if I can distinguish the type of modulation.
I recall a comment regarding vocal modulation in western singing and Opera, that it was preferred to be used sparingly as it has the tendency to give the impression of the singer being nervous. I know for myself when I was doing a lot of singing, once the vocals had built up to strength there would come a very natural, unforced modulation, particullarly towards the end of the note, not at the beginning.

Kel.

Kiku Day wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

A complete list of these terms, what they mean, and the notations for them is something I wish I had. Any body have the resources to do that?  Kiku?

Sure thing, although 'complete' is a big word. But we can try! Please help everybody!

• Tateyuri: Vertical head movements
• Yokoyuri: Horizontal head movements
• Mawashiyuri: Head movements in circles
• Takeyuri: Shaking the shakuhachi in order to get the effect of very fine yuri.
• Sokoyuri: Large vertical head movements (especially down)
• Takeyogeyuri: same as takeyuri (some say finer...?)
• Furi: A single or more head movement down often in combination with atari.
• Furiokuri: A single or more of head movement trying to get the effect as if one threw the sound off
• Nayashi: portamento (usually down or down-up. This one really varies depending on school, so please add)
• Ikinayashi: A type of nayashi the composer Takahashi Yuji told me about. He worked with Yokoyama, so perhaps KSK people know more...

OK shakuahchi folks. Add some more. This could be fun because we can compare the differences ! ! !

Kiku, if I uri vertically, the pitch modulates, if I uri horizontally, the volume modulates, if I uri diagonally or figure 8 or circle, it is a more subtle combination of both.
During the thread, no mention has been made to what is modulating, pitch or volume, so this is really what I wanted to bring up, or draw attention to, as it would make quite a difference to the effect, just how one does their Uri.

Furi, i think, would be a pitch modulation in the meri direction.

Kel.

Karmajampa wrote:

Kiku, if I uri vertically, the pitch modulates, if I uri horizontally, the volume modulates, if I uri diagonally or figure 8 or circle, it is a more subtle combination of both.
During the thread, no mention has been made to what is modulating, pitch or volume, so this is really what I wanted to bring up, or draw attention to, as it would make quite a difference to the effect, just how one does their Uri.

Furi, i think, would be a pitch modulation in the meri direction.

Kel.

Hi Kel.
Ahh! You mean yuri.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - but if you take away the first letter the next 3 letter of both yuri and furi are the same. Just to make it complicated the English pronunciation of yuri and uri is the same while if you read it in the Japanese romanisation system uri will be pronounced ouri. So, apologies for my confusion - it was genuine.

I would call yuri for vibrato because it usually is repeated and used not as a singular effect.
Furi can also be a pitch modulation returning back to kari - unless it is a furi otoshi, then it is always ending in meri (otoshi means dropping). Often this is a single movement and not repeated as yuri.

This can vary from school to school as sometimes I have experienced that the same name means something different in other schools. Here is anyway my take base on Zensabo but also learning short periods with teachers from Chikuho, Myoan-Taizan, Kinko teachers.
All these yuri below have pitch modulations as aim - I think.

• Tateyuri: Vertical head movements
• Mawashiyuri: Head movements in circles
• Sokoyuri: Large vertical head movements (especially down)

while

• Yokoyuri have more volume modulation as aim.
However, in both types they overlap and there is volume modulation in the 3 first yuri and also some pitch modulation in the last one.
It has been explaine to me by a couple of teachers in Japan that yokoyuri became much more popular than it was after playing in sankyoku ensembles became the major shakuhachi activity. This, I was explained, was due to that yokoyuri have less pitch modulation. But, I have not been able to check up on this - and it might just be a few people's opinions.

Kel, if you are approaching yuri, then try to practice them fairly slowly. I have noticed from my students that many end up doing the yuri too fast if I don't make them practice it in slow motion. However, I get the feeling you have a great ear and musical sense + lots of music experience... so I have no doubt that you will be fine without my extra comment. I hope my advice wasn't unnecessary...

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-08-30 06:10:59)

Keep in mind that my samples of yuri are my (limited) interpretation of what the terms mean, playing on a particular shakuhachi, on a particular day, etc. Therefore any conclusions are just a starting point for discussion.

There is an old, and probably true, saw in the traditional shakuhachi teaching community that it takes three years to develop a decent vibrato.

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement? I've noticed this in other videos too. I want to play like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5HHdTpUXeQ&NR=1

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

It's not a 'vibrato-like' sound, it's a vibrato. With an efficient embouchure, very little head movement is required for a subtle
but clear vibrato.

Get on with your three-years' work...

Pretty normal vibrato action there. There are other styles of playing which use more extreme vibrato but that's just a choice, not mandatory.

radiognome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

The key word here, of yours, is "little head movement". This is not a little head movement. If you can see the head moving then it's a lot of head movement. Maybe you just don't get as much vibrato without moving even more. This is as much vibrato as you would normally expect with this much head movement.

chikuzen wrote:

radiognome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

The key word here, of yours, is "little head movement". This is not a little head movement. If you can see the head moving then it's a lot of head movement. Maybe you just don't get as much vibrato without moving even more. This is as much vibrato as you would normally expect with this much head movement.

I agree with you about the Koga video. What about this one at 1:40? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJcaCwN8Z4 . I see some head shake earlier in the phrase, but when it gets to the end at 1:40 I'm hearing distinct vibrato with no perceptible headshake. Does it get so that the headshake becomes imperceptible, or is this player using some diaphragmatic vibrato?

andyshak wrote:

Edosan wrote: "....Miyata ....does use quite a bit of diaphragmatic vibrato"
In my experience this statement may not be correct.

Regarding the amount of head movement to achieve either meri or vibrato, please consider the effect of the amount of pressure between the flute and the chin. If the pressure between the flute and the chin when playing is geater, then more exaggerated head movements may be required to achieve intended pitch variations. Players should consider trying to reduce this pressure as a means to achieve a greater degree of pitch control and to minimise the head movements required when using meri or vibrato techniques.

Andrew MacGregor

Fact is that, even though what you say is accurate, Miyata does indeed use diaphragmatic vibrato quite a bit.

I don't mean to be the bearer of mediocre compromise, but it looks and sounds to me like he uses both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJcaCwN8Z4

-------------------------------------------------------------------

(later in the pre-dawn hours ...)

Then again, Jim & Groucho remind me, how can I trust my senses at all? I have been scolded several times recently for being so impertinent.

I must repent.

I'll side with Andrew to even the playing field.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2010-06-09 06:40:12)

Chris,
        I think Groucho-Sensei was actually implying the opposite. When you stop believing your own perceptions you wind up in the Tea Party.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2010-06-09 10:08:13)