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Hi everyone,
New here so apologies that the first post is commercial in nature. Siwa is a small record label focusing on Japanese underground music and it's just released an album of solo shakuhachi recordings by Sabu Orimo. It's a 12" vinyl only release in a numbered edition of 299 and comes in a hand-pulled screen printed sleeve. The man himself has apparently described his approach to the instrument as "Japanese old stone age style" and this recording consists mostly of improvisations. .... make of that what you will but for a better idea there are a couple of sound samples and ordering instructions on the Siwa website http://www.siwarecords.com/
Thanks for your time, hope the posting is appropriate. Correct or delete me if I'm wrong.
Siwa
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The 'track 3 excerpt' made me feel like I was at the Copenhagen Climate change conference.
?
K.
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I'm intrigued by this, shame it's only on LP.
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Jam wrote:
I'm intrigued by this, shame it's only on LP.
He releases stuff on weird formats like cdr, cassette and now vinyl.
I have all his recordings. They are interesting. Maybe I'll write a review.
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Just a little anecdote and an introduction to Sabu-chan, as he was called the first time I met him.
A friend of mine, Kiyoko, took me to some of her friends for New Years. That is quite some years ago. The couple we visited was very interesting... some 'real' hippies... with the spirit and ideology very well kept (there are quite a few of them in Japan and they are lovely people). They had been for long time punk musicians. They had recordings of some of the most noisy and aggressive punk I ever heard. But then a few years before I met them, they had taken a radical turn musically and gone 'unplugged' and back to nature and tradition. They were now focusing on performing traditional Japanese music without it being in strict iemoto system.. they performed music they felt in their hearts - as they explained to me. They were performing a lot in smaller Shinto Shrines playing music, dancing and singing. The priests of these smaller shrines had an understanding for what they were trying to do - something I found quite fascinating as well.
They had a teenage son at the time. But as he was a protesting teenager, he had 'moved out' of home. He then lived in a tent near the river close by. That was Sabu.
In a way when I heard the first CD with Sabu - I could totally see how he could go musically the direction he has. Having been brought up with very free-spirited parents and lots of alternative music and musicians coming through the house... Sabu took lessons with Okuda for about a year before he began to walk his own path with jinashi shakuhachi. He has learned shakuhachi-making from Murai Eigorō.
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I liked SUSABU a lot, very interesting stuff. I'm very partial to raw improv and like very much that he's doing what he is doing with shakuhachi.
I would like to hear his other material and see it available in an accessible format (even just as downloads), even though I think I understand where he's coming from with that, but my chances of buying an vinyl LP are slim to zero. [I still have about 3,000 vinyl LPs and haven't owned a turntable since about 1992.]
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Sabu's shakuhachi should meet with Mats Gustafsson's free tenor; complimentary concepts.
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Tairaku wrote:
I have all his recordings. They are interesting. Maybe I'll write a review.
Yes, please do. A candid take on his work from someone with a solid traditional background with an appreciation for experimental music would be very interesting.
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Thanks for the heads up.
I listened to the samples and I had to order a copy. It is only $23 and there are no shipping charges in the USA.
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Excellent.. thanks for the heads up...
This blog has a download link that works..
http://www.killedincars.com/2008/10/sab … pirit.html
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Hmmm, I guess I'll be the wet blanket here.
I don't hear the "Japanese" of the Japanese music that is presented in the samples. I heard some referential phrases from Yokoyama's version of Tamuke, but that's about it.
The exploration of scales do not seem to have much of a ground in any Japanese music I've heard. "Japanese Stone Age" may a be convenient way of getting around the 'tradition thing', but it sounded to me like a Western person playing something like improvisation very loosely associated with Japanese roots music.
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Chris Moran wrote:
it sounded to me like a Western person playing something like improvisation very loosely associated with Japanese roots music.
That would be fair I think.
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Chris Moran wrote:
Hmmm, I guess I'll be the wet blanket here.
I don't hear the "Japanese" of the Japanese music that is presented in the samples. I heard some referential phrases from Yokoyama's version of Tamuke, but that's about it.
The exploration of scales do not seem to have much of a ground in any Japanese music I've heard. "Japanese Stone Age" may a be convenient way of getting around the 'tradition thing', but it sounded to me like a Western person playing something like improvisation very loosely associated with Japanese roots music.
Ditto [wet blanket #2].
Doesn't evoke 'Stone Age' of any ethnic variety for me, and I've got a fairly wide aperture for Stone Age.
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Ditto.....I don't even like to call it improvisation.
I felt it was more of a loose ramble with no direction other than 'we'll see what happen and try and make any errors look like they were intended'
., my comment on track three referred to it starting out with some direction then soon flinging into a total raucus dishevellment. Such as the CCCC....IMO.
The Tenmuke inclusion felt partial, incomplete, particularly from the standpoint of having listened and played the piece so many times myself.
I feel if you are going to imitate a piece it has to look very good or stick to doing an obvious caricature.
Didn't feel like either.
K.
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OK it's interesting that people are scrutinizing Sabu Orimo in this way.
I have all his recordings and I enjoy listening to them.
First to describe what he does.......he is a primitive improvisor. Apparently he had a little bit of training from Okuda and then went on his own. It would be interesting to know why he stopped studying Japanese music. Perhaps he just wanted to blow totally free and didn't want to waste any more time learning existing repertoire. I don't know what other musical training he had on any other instruments but perhaps there is some of that considering that his parents are musicians of some repute.
On his first CD he played a few honkyoku. That sounded like a beginner playing honkyoku. He must have figured that out because on his next 5 releases (that I have) he just plays his own original improvised music.
Now, when we improvise we use the language we know. It seems to me that Sabu just plays around the shakuhachi looking for stuff. He's quite patient with that. Sometimes he rocks back and forth between two notes for upwards of 10-15 minutes. Which is why listening to the samples doesn't give you the full picture. A lot of the effect of his music is cumulative. His musical vocabulary is very primitive. When I first heard him I thought, "I could make about 10 albums of this stuff in the time it takes to play it." Which is probably true. But he's a very committed player which is what makes his playing compelling despite the lack of advanced technique.
I wish I could play his flutes to get an idea of what tools he's using. Sounds like they're basic home made "hocchiku" type flutes. It's a raw sound he gets.
There are other extra-musical things about him that are interesting. Everything is a matter of perspective. He is not marketing himself as a shakuhachi player or traditional Japanese music. He's being marketed to the "noise" market. People on this forum are comparing him to other shakuhachi recording artists. Fair enough he is playing shakuhachi. But his records are reviewed in the "noise" publications and websites alongside industrial music and the like. If you look at him in that context it's a whole other perspective. He's appearing at gigs blowing on a bamboo tube which he uses for noisemaking purposes. Kind of funny and to the "noise" fans an original approach. He also exclusively releases limited editions in weird formats (CDR, cassette, vinyl) to create a mystique in terms of packaging and format.
He's a young guy, so it will be interesting to see how he develops. His playing is getting better as the years go by, probably spends a lot of time blowing. I'll be curious to see if he reaches a dead end in his own playing and goes for more lessons from Okuda or someone else, or if he just keeps to his own practice.
There are a lot of people here on the forum who are beginners or who consider themselves outsiders who say things like "There should be no rules, just blow what you like. Zen is what you make of it, etc." Usually I think they're lazy and don't want to practice. But I don't get that impression from Sabu Orimo, because he's quite serious about what he's doing and has developed an interesting body of work and a unique persona in a few years of activity. He has 3 CDR's, three cassettes and this vinyl LP out in the last 3 or 4 years. If you are intrigued by the idea of primitive, raw, improv from an outsider perspective you might want to hear him. He's better at it than the other people I've heard trying that. It's like he's on a deserted island and a shakuhachi washes up on the beach and he's exploring it without much context.
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Tairaku wrote:
He's being marketed to the "noise" market. People on this forum are comparing him to other shakuhachi recording artists. Fair enough he is playing shakuhachi. But his records are reviewed in the "noise" publications and websites alongside industrial music and the like. If you look at him in that context it's a whole other perspective. He's appearing at gigs blowing on a bamboo tube which he uses for noisemaking purposes.
Just for an aesthetic argument, and only for that: The samples as presented feel undeveloped to me, not in a 'primitive' undeveloped way, but aesthetically, even as a 'noise aesthetic'.
Tairaku wrote:
There are a lot of people here on the forum who are beginners or who consider themselves outsiders who say things like "There should be no rules, just blow what you like. Zen is what you make of it, etc."
And from the samples presented I'd say he's maybe a meter or two ahead of those folks, but not much more so. The musical statements he's making feels weak to me. I do like his web site and his packaging a lot. If the music samples could make the same fresh noise statements as the artwork on his web site, I'd want to hear more.
Tairaku wrote:
If you are intrigued by the idea of primitive, raw, improv from an outsider perspective you might want to hear him. He's better at it than the other people I've heard trying that. It's like he's on a deserted island and a shakuhachi washes up on the beach and he's exploring it without much context.
I guess I don't hear the "raw" nor do I hear the "improv". In shakuhachi, Watazumi could do raw, Okuda can do raw. Kiku Day can do raw. And a few others I've heard. But this young man is not on a deserted island. He has a musical background. He even has placed himself in a context of modern shakuhachi music if he studied with Okuda. He can _act_ primitive, but he will never be primitive. When he references "Tamuke" he immediately has put his noise music in a traditional non-primitive and highly musical context. You can't work yourself out of that box after you have placed yourself in it -- that is unless you really know the box you want to escape from (like Watazumi, Okuda, etc.)
It reminds me, and not fondly by the way, of art students saying that they are going to make primitive or neo-primitive art and they keep referencing traditional artistic statements in their image selection, style and execution of the piece. And they perform all of these feats through the "lens" of modernity, but completely unaware that they are perceiving the world through that lens. Then they justify their lack of thorough expression and technique by claiming to be 'outsiders' which of course they cannot be because ... they aren't.
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Well.......aside from the "Japanese Stone Age" tag, I don't actually know what he thinks of his own music or what context he views himself as being within. It would be interesting to know where he thinks he fits within shakuhachi music.
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Mmmmm.... I wish I had listened more carefully to Sabu when we spoke last time (2 years ago). I should call him up. I will do that one of these days - but when I am a bit more relaxed and the climate gig over and done with. I forgot a lot of the conversations I had with him.
Anyway one thing I do remember is that Sabu did not place himself in a shakuhachi context. He placed himself in noise, improv and alternative music + lifestyle kind of world - as Tairaku suggested. But he was at the same time very into his Japanese roots in an intimate and personal way. He spoke a lot to me about being Japanese, what it meant to him and about having contact with that aspect of himself. But at the same time - he was very aware of the fact that he was living in the now and here, which means he cannot (because of the person he is) go the traditional way.
I think he went to Okuda for the rawness of his playing and to learn basic techniques of playing - and perhaps even to get in contact with the Japaneseness that the shakuhachi after all do represent. But he did not say that to me - that is my own interpretation - or rather suggestion. And after that he wanted to do his own thing.
I remember Okuda was very happy with Sabu, telling me about this young man improving so fast and playing loads.
One thing I also remember from our conversations is that Sabu spoke about a TV programme of Yokoyama Katsuya on NHK. In this programme, Yokoyama had (according to what Sabu told me) talked about the feeling he had when standing in front of the New York Philharmonics as a soloist. It linked to the feeling of the Japanese having lost the war to the US (historically the allied countries.. but the US presence was strongest) and being the underdog (my words of my understanding of what Sabu was trying to say to me).. and now he was standing in front of the orchestra... Sabu was talking very emotionally to me about this aspect of shakuhachi history. He told me Yokoyama's words had touched him deeply and made him cry - together with his parents that also cried.
I bought a booklet NHK released about this TV programme. I have it in Denmark. When I get home perhaps I can post the programme's title up and see if any of the Japanese residents from the forum have seen it.
Now this conversation is more than 2 years ago, and I am sure he is much more clear in his understanding of what he is doing. It could be very interesting to do an interview.... Hmmmm......
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To me (admittedly after hearing only this limited sample) he sounds dull, uninteresting, and unschooled. No matter how 'serious' or 'passionate' one is, the old maxim still applies: you gotta spend some time in the woodshed, ANY woodshed, to come out with some actual wood.
He may as well be playing an ocarina or a recorder.
Perhaps if I listened to more of his material, I'd tend to like him more just on his own terms (but I doubt it, not being a great deal into 'noise').
For the record: Much of what Yokoyama says and writes makes me cry, too...
Last edited by edosan (2009-12-12 11:34:04)
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Excellent critique Tairaku, and Kiku's personal anecdotes are superb!
I like noise, and improv, and primitive playing, and most importantly playing for the experience of playing and getting lost in that world with zero reference to what a second party may be experiencing listening to it. Maybe that is why I like Sabu Orimo, even in the context of the traditional playing I've been intentionally saturating myself with over the last year or so that I've been playing. I relate to what he's doing, whether it warrants "marketing" to the outside world or not I like what he's doing. I find it at least as interesting as anything improvisational or free form that anyone is doing with western instruments without being held to a standard of "tradition." Artistic standards are an open debate probably with no final criteria ..... but having standards of technical ability is another story.
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edosan wrote:
To me (admittedly after hearing only this limited sample) he sounds dull, uninteresting, and unschooled. No matter how 'serious' or 'passionate' one is, the old maxim still applies: you gotta spend some time in the woodshed, ANY woodshed, to come out with some actual wood.
Try the download of SUSABU. There is more going on there.
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Oh by the way, Sabu has played shakuhachi quite a few years now. He didn't pick up the shakuhachi last year... or 3 years ago... It is years ago he did that one year with Okuda. After that he has been developing his own style of playing and going his own ways. We have other examples on the forum of people who haven't been in the shakuhachi world for that long but still got very far. Sabu is like that - but walking alone on a path he is creating himself.
Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-12-12 13:04:28)
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I tried the sample of LSD-March. I think you've got to be in the right mood for this stuff.
Edit --- A few more minutes through the sample, this one's growing on me, it rocks. The other ones I tried were too avant-garde for me to really enjoy, no shakuhachi in this one so far though.
2nd Edit --- I finally found the Sabu Orimo samples, it's a lot more palatable than the other stuff on the label, I think because solo shakuhachi is more pleasant to listen to than the other stuff the "noise" audience likes. It sounds good to me for the most part, but there are a few moments where it sounds like he doesn't really know how to play. I wonder how under the influence these artists were when they recorded.
Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-12-12 13:46:33)
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Tairaku wrote:
It would be interesting to know where he thinks he fits within shakuhachi music.
I'd be more intested to find out where he thinks he fits in within Noise and Avant Garde music. I do agree that using the shakuhachi is secondary but how is going to use it in his art, what is his philosophy about using it as it relates to Noise?
Some of my personal noise favs are local : Bastard Noise and Amps for Çhrist from the Inland Valley here/
Big avante gardist whom I refernse: Lou Harrison and Harry Partch, Josef Beuys. But probably too old school for this discussion. I'd love to hear some ideas and critique from Mujitsu.
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