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Tube of delight!

#1 2009-12-11 19:51:14

Jon Kypros
Flutemaker
From: Europe
Registered: 2008-06-28
Posts: 261
Website

Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Chris Moran wrote:

Most people are pricing shakuhachi like it was still the Swingin' 2005s! Well, it ain't no more and my guess is that the more people who start becoming more sophisticated in their knowledge of shakuhachi are not going to be willing to continue to buy instruments at the old 'rare instrument' prices.

Why should shakuhachi depreciate and follow the economic times? Who sells shakuhachi at old 'rare instrument prices'?

I've had no issue with SM accept that it does not prompt international buyers to pay international shipping and with my luck I had two or three incidence of confusion however I am assuming that my experiences are just that, mine. Ultimately you cannot compete with eBay. So why? SM inevitable competes with it because it is an auction site.

I have no clue what it takes to run a forum. With that said, how about another "forum"dedicated to just selling and trading shakuhachi? Only charge a little per sale to help pay the site fees ($60 a month or so?). It would be just like what was here before SM and be separate from SF.

Horst Xenmeister wrote:

BrianP wrote:

I tried and gave up.

NO REWARDS BEST TO GIVE UP

The greatest reward. Best to persist smile

Anways, back to crafting my shakuhachi then another full day of teaching shakuhachi lessons...!

Last edited by Jon Kypros (2024-03-30 19:12:47)


My site flutedojo. Craftsperson of Jinashi and Jimori shakuhachi for sale since 2002. Dai Shihan 'Grandmaster' and full-time teacher of shakuhachi lessons

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#2 2009-12-12 11:47:45

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Jon wrote:

As far as choosing an instrument I think most people's best bet is one of Justin Senryu's.

OK, I hate to spoil a perfect plug for Justin, but despite his being very knowledgeable and from recordings I heard on his website knowing he's a solid player, he hasn't been at this all that long. How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce? That's one of the reasons I prefer vintage shakuhachi. That way if there are any quirks at least you can look at the thing, see how worn the finger holes are and how many times it's been repaired and know that there was someone who liked the flute very much despite the quirks, so there's a good clue that it's your perspective that's at fault rather than the flute.   

Jon wrote:

So what a about a simple shakuhachi selling forum separate from this forum? Anyone could do it, who knows how to smile Or how about a strictly trading section on this forum?

The only thing I see wrong with the market place here (keep in mind I haven't tried to sell) is that there aren't enough flutes for sale.  What I like about it is that the sellers usually have some presence here on the forum and you can sort know the seller's tastes and online character, which hopefully reflects the person in real life.

BTW, it's a bit risky but there are some really good deals on Ebay right now. Higher priced flutes above a couple hundred aren't selling well and I see ones with very reasonable starting prices expire without any bids. That 1.8 7 hole shakuhachi I used in the christmas carol recording that I put on the "christmas carols" thread in the "pieces and notation" section of the forum I got for $100. There are some Ebay sellers I wouldn't trust but it's really just because they don't have a presence on the forum and I don't "know" them, not because I suspect anything. In fact, the $100 7 hole was from a totally unknown source but I thought the price was worth the risk in that case. It's a buyers market, if you have a job go for it, you can probably get a shakuhachi you would've had to pay between $1000 and $2000 three years ago for 1/3 to 1/2 the price.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#3 2009-12-12 11:55:33

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

radi0gnome wrote:

Jon wrote:

As far as choosing an instrument I think most people's best bet is one of Justin Senryu's.

OK, I hate to spoil a perfect plug for Justin, but despite his being very knowledgeable and from recordings I heard on his website knowing he's a solid player, he hasn't been at this all that long. How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce? That's one of the reasons I prefer vintage shakuhachi. That way if there are any quirks at least you can look at the thing, see how worn the finger holes are and how many times it's been repaired and know that there was someone who liked the flute very much despite the quirks, so there's a good clue that it's your perspective that's at fault rather than the flute.   

Jon wrote:

So what a about a simple shakuhachi selling forum separate from this forum? Anyone could do it, who knows how to smile Or how about a strictly trading section on this forum?

The only thing I see wrong with the market place here (keep in mind I haven't tried to sell) is that there aren't enough flutes for sale.  What I like about it is that the sellers usually have some presence here on the forum and you can sort know the seller's tastes and online character, which hopefully reflects the person in real life.

BTW, it's a bit risky but there are some really good deals on Ebay right now. Higher priced flutes above a couple hundred aren't selling well and I see ones with very reasonable starting prices expire without any bids. That 1.8 7 hole shakuhachi I used in the christmas carol recording that I put on the "christmas carols" thread in the "pieces and notation" section of the forum I got for $100. There are some Ebay sellers I wouldn't trust but it's really just because they don't have a presence on the forum and I don't "know" them, not because I suspect anything. In fact, the $100 7 hole was from a totally unknown source but I thought the price was worth the risk in that case. It's a buyers market, if you have a job go for it, you can probably get a shakuhachi you would've had to pay between $1000 and $2000 three years ago for 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

You are completely ignorant, and mostly incoherent. My guess is you've never even touched one of Justin's flutes, much less played one, and couldn't evaluate its quality if you did. And yes, I am being judgemental.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#4 2009-12-12 12:28:38

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

As far as Justin's flutes go I can only say I find them incredible and I know Chikuzen is a big fan also.  It is amazing how good someone can get at anything with the correct determination, work, time and contacts.  If we all spent 8 hrs a day practicing and taking lessons for one year we would easily be better than the average player after 5 years who practices an hour here or there 3-4 days a week.  So time isn't always the determining factor.  I have been playing harmonica for 5 years but I met some of the best players in the world and went on the road with them and practiced up to 6 hrs a day every day.  Without tooting my own horn so to speak I am better than a lot of people I know who have played 20 yrs and I teach with one of the biggest teaching groups.  People always ask me how I got so good so quick.  The answer is determination, work, time and contacts. 

Justin makes an amazing flute and if you haven't played one you should try it before stating any opinions on them.  Just my two cents.

Humbly,

Brian


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#5 2009-12-12 12:46:25

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

edosan wrote:

You are completely ignorant, and mostly incoherent. My guess is you've never even touched one of Justin's flutes, much less played one, and couldn't evaluate its quality if you did. And yes, I am being judgemental.

Uh..., OK so you like Justin's flutes. Maybe you or someone (maybe even Justin) can alleviate the only concern I'd have about buying one of his instruments, as I'm probably not the only person looking at his flutes that was turned away after reading an interview I got to from a link here on the forum where he said he only started playing shakuhachi 5 years ago. I was floored when I read that. I don't know, maybe he started making before playing and as far as "playing" maybe he means "seriously playing". It could be the explanation, he plays very well.

Other than that, maybe it's ignorance, I haven't experienced many shakuhachi or teachers, but I feel my gravitation toward vintage instruments can be chalked up to personal preference. You happen to think a Justin flute is the the greatest out there, someone else maybe a Levenson, I happen to feel more comfortable with an older well-used Japanese flute with an unknown or insignificant hanko. Maybe I'll be seeing the same mystique in a 2009 Justin in 30 years, but for now vintage flutes are my preference.   

Geez, Ed, you helped me and so many others out so much in the beginning, what gives? I asked a question I was curious about, "How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce?" It's an honest question, an honest answer from Justin or someone intimate with his work would probably put things in perspective. I know it's gift giving time and plugs for peoples products are popping up all over. I gave my teacher a plug that I backed up with a recording I made that came out pretty good. So now I run across a plug for someone who, unless I misread or am not remembering correctly, is relatively inexperienced and says his flutes are most people's best bet. If I should be only expressing opinions or asking questions off-line, what the heck is this forum for?

Edit --- Thanks Brian, you wrote your reply while I was typing. Chikuzen liking them says a lot, and you're right about perserverence, and then there's aways the possibility some people are more talented than others too.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-12-12 12:59:30)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#6 2009-12-12 16:18:20

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Jon wrote:

I think there is something to be said for supporting living active makers. .

Yes that's a good point. If they can't pursue their craft and art it will die out. Actually it already has to some degree.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2009-12-12 16:20:18

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Jon wrote:

Okay... I could learn I suppose but would I have the same gravitational pull as the stars Brian, Ken and Perry? smile

Seriously, I don't personally have the motivation right now to do something like that and surely there is someone more adept and eager to please then me!

Hey, you had a good idea so I gave it its own topic to put focus on it. Ideas are no good unless someone follows through on them. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2009-12-12 16:32:30

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

radi0gnome wrote:

OK, I hate to spoil a perfect plug for Justin, but despite his being very knowledgeable and from recordings I heard on his website knowing he's a solid player, he hasn't been at this all that long. How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce? That's one of the reasons I prefer vintage shakuhachi. That way if there are any quirks at least you can look at the thing, see how worn the finger holes are and how many times it's been repaired and know that there was someone who liked the flute very much despite the quirks, so there's a good clue that it's your perspective that's at fault rather than the flute.

If Justin makes good flutes they're good, it's got nothing to do with the amount of time he's been working on it. Established makers don't always make good flutes. Sometimes they just make acceptable flutes crafted to suit the norm but have no personality. If the flutes you like are vintage it doesn't follow that all vintage flutes are good. Most are NOT good. Regardless of how much they've been played. If they were we'd all be running around playing vintage Tozan flutes since they are so plentiful and cheap. Unfortunately with a few exceptions the Tozan makers didn't make good flutes. Even modern Tozan players don't play vintage Tozan flutes for the most part. Experienced players mainly play vintage Kinko and/or Myoan flutes because those makers sometimes knew what they were doing.

I played Justin's flutes in Sydney and they are in line with what you can get from many other modern Japanese makers. I didn't get to spend much time with them but there was nothing amateur about it. He also did a repair on one of my flutes and the work was impeccable.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2009-12-12 21:26:10

Lanier flutes
Member
From: Japan
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 32

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Radi0knome asked "How does he (Justin) manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce?"

Of course talent must be factored in there somewhere.  And I think Justin spends most of his waking hours working with shakuhachi -- whether making, playing, listening to versions of the same honkyoku by five different schools, or increasing his encyclopedic knowledge of lineage histories -- which is probably not true for most of us here on this forum.  Also, through his training with various shakuhachi lineages in Japan and contacts with living masters of the instrument, Justin has access to vintage flutes by the great makers of the past, such as Kodo II or Kodo III, which he can examine and learn from at his leisure.  I think Justin has clear ideas of what he likes in a flute and has figured out how to make flutes that can produce the sounds that he has in his head; I certainly was pleasantly surprised when I first played one of his flutes.  I just wish I could afford to buy one.   Despite his seemingly short time of being involved with shakuhachi, Justin definitely knows what he is doing in terms of making or repairing the instrument.


"And the music of humans means bamboo pipes singing"            Yen-cheng  Tzu-yu

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#10 2009-12-13 23:54:47

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

radi0gnome wrote:

edosan wrote:

You are completely ignorant, and mostly incoherent. My guess is you've never even touched one of Justin's flutes, much less played one, and couldn't evaluate its quality if you did. And yes, I am being judgemental.

Uh..., OK so you like Justin's flutes. Maybe you or someone (maybe even Justin) can alleviate the only concern I'd have about buying one of his instruments, as I'm probably not the only person looking at his flutes that was turned away after reading an interview I got to from a link here on the forum where he said he only started playing shakuhachi 5 years ago. I was floored when I read that. I don't know, maybe he started making before playing and as far as "playing" maybe he means "seriously playing". It could be the explanation, he plays very well.

Other than that, maybe it's ignorance, I haven't experienced many shakuhachi or teachers, but I feel my gravitation toward vintage instruments can be chalked up to personal preference. You happen to think a Justin flute is the the greatest out there, someone else maybe a Levenson, I happen to feel more comfortable with an older well-used Japanese flute with an unknown or insignificant hanko. Maybe I'll be seeing the same mystique in a 2009 Justin in 30 years, but for now vintage flutes are my preference.   

Geez, Ed, you helped me and so many others out so much in the beginning, what gives? I asked a question I was curious about, "How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce?" It's an honest question, an honest answer from Justin or someone intimate with his work would probably put things in perspective. I know it's gift giving time and plugs for peoples products are popping up all over. I gave my teacher a plug that I backed up with a recording I made that came out pretty good. So now I run across a plug for someone who, unless I misread or am not remembering correctly, is relatively inexperienced and says his flutes are most people's best bet. If I should be only expressing opinions or asking questions off-line, what the heck is this forum for?

Edit --- Thanks Brian, you wrote your reply while I was typing. Chikuzen liking them says a lot, and you're right about perserverence, and then there's aways the possibility some people are more talented than others too.

Hi Radiognome
I'm not sure I can exactly alleviate your concern. We all have different ways of judging what we like or what we think of as good. If more years of experience than I have, is a prerequisite to being judged as good then there is nothing I can do about that except wait as time passes.

I was slightly wary of that when answering Brian's interview, as I know that some people do judge a lot by time. I once even received an offensive email from someone boasting of how many years more than me they (wrongly assumed) they had studied music, in response to some shakuhachi music information which I posted which they had wrongly assumed to be incorrect! I don't see much logic in it myself. Time of study and quality of study are not always analogous. But I do understand people could be suspicious. When Brian asked, I wondered how people may react, but then I have nothing to hide and rather people know me for who I am and make their own judgements.

Having said that, 5 years is enough time for fully qualifying as a doctor (at least in England that's how long it takes to get a medical degree).

As far as instruments are concerned, I can understand a love of older shakuhachi as sometimes simply age has an appeal.
As well as those I have made myself, I also regularly play and enjoy vintage shakuhachi from my collection dating back two and a half centuries. Part of my enjoyment from that is due to their excellant quality (I would not enjoy a bad shakuhachi even if it was "vintage" except maybe out of curiosity, and as Brian said good vintage instruments are very rare so I am very lucky to have the instruments I have) - as a maker I have always sought to play the best sounding shakuhachi I could find to inform and guide me, and having them here at home gives me a constant reference; partly from their variety as I have interest in the making styles of different periods, and the different areas of Japan from which the music I study comes; and partly due to the awe and inspiration it gives me as a number of them are made by famous historical figures - to know that I am playing these same shakuhachi which the great masters of the past have made and whose names have become so familiar to me. This brings the history right here into this moment.

Thanks for questioning, and thanks to the kind remarks made about my instruments. I'm very glad to hear that you are enjoying my work.

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#11 2009-12-14 04:50:26

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Hi radi0gnome.

I think it is totally ok to have doubts and ask into it. Time is a very tricky little fellow. It is at the same time totally unimportant and very important!
Some people are very fast learners. Justin is certainly one very good example of this. When he had played shakuhachi for 1 month, he played as if he had played a year. When I saw his flutes last time I was in Japan, which is 2 years ago now, his flutes were very well crafted - and he can only have made shakuhachi for about 2 years at that time. Jon here on the forum is another example of a maker/player that has been a fast learner. And both these people keep on developing their skills very fast. So I am sure that the shakuhachi of both these makers are much better now as it is a while since I saw their flutes.

So time can be very unimportant when it comes to skills - in one way.

Time is very important other ways that is less tangible. The more time you have spent with something - the more alternative routes one have experienced in solving a problem. The more time spent - often the less attached you will be to seeing right and wrong as black and white.

There is something to say about time.
So I do understand you ask the question.

I am personally very unattached to time and to years of having played. This is because the density of playing and learning is so different and individual. However, I have also at times put myself in positions where time became important. When organising events like the European Shakuhachi Summer Schools, one have to take different aspects into consideration when choosing teachers. Many many people begin to teach shakuhachi way too early - I think. Therefore I received emails from people who wanted to teach at such events when their careers were too shallow. It takes calibre to stand in front of many people and teach. Either a good foundation based on time should be present or the person should be able to offer something very new and refreshing. If the latter is not present... well, then the fact that the time line is shallow becomes important.
An example is Orimo Sabu who has not played shakuhachi that many years (and is discussed a lot in the recording section here on the forum). I would consider him as a teacher or workshop-host in a Summer School because of what he is doing is new and refreshing, and can provide a new angle into shakuhachi playing. This is an example of when time doesn't matter. But was he a 'normal' Okuda student who has only played - let's say 5-6 years, I'd rather invite some senior students than him. Here time matters.

So, radi0gnome, I hope you will have the opportunity to test out flutes from the newer makers. It would be interesting to know what you think of them.
I was thinking of something in your post as well. You write you prefer vintage flutes. But as some already have pointed out, vintage flutes do not guarantee good flutes. I would - if I should set up some rule for myself - prefer to go for flutes made by established makers. And in that sense one could say that new and young shakuhachi makers are fast establishing themselves in that world. Now, again this is a flexible matter. Being an established maker may not mean that they make flutes you would like or I would like... there is scope for individual preference and the variations of that.

Anyway, I think time versus skills is something to ponder upon, so thank you for starting the subject! smile

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-12-14 06:09:29)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#12 2009-12-14 09:12:48

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

Kiku Day wrote:

So, radi0gnome, I hope you will have the opportunity to test out flutes from the newer makers. It would be interesting to know what you think of them.

I hope I'll get the opportunity too. It kind of helps though to get it without having to purchase the instruments, like at a camp or convention or something where individual makers are likely to be present with samples they feel represent their work. Like Tairaku in said another thread, you really only need two flutes, the rest is just fun.   

Kiku Day wrote:

I was thinking of something in your post as well. You write you prefer vintage flutes. But as some already have pointed out, vintage flutes do not guarantee good flutes.

Keep in mind that although Ed was a bit harsh back there, there is some truth to the part of what he said about my ignorance, there's a lot for me to learn. The flute I ended up getting probably only has a vintage look, as it looks like an old flute with modern reworking (new bore, moved finger holes, obviously old bamboo, acrylic utaguchi inlay, and some other evidence the seller pointed out that I didn't fully understand). It makes me wonder if there's something to the old, well played bamboo helping the sound idea, because this flute sounds awesome, each note opens up an entire new world to explore. The guy with the unidentified hanko that did the rework probably had something to do with it too...


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#13 2009-12-18 13:27:40

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Shakuhachi Jon is NOT starting a new forum!

I think it's important to remember the relativity of words like "good". Words are used in context. One flute cannot do "Everything". As has been mentioned, you do need a dependable flute when you start your shakuhachi training. Something that you can play many kinds of songs on and develop skills until you are at a place where you know which direction you will start specializing in. Another perspective that would be useful is that if you only play one type of flute (jiari or jinashi or jimori, or only a 1.8 or 2.4 etc) you are "specializing" in the experiences that the flute dictates. That's why you need but only need something dependable to start. Because you need to play a variety of song styles to develop your skills. Those are the some of the thoughts I have in mind when offering Justin's and Tom Deaver's flutes on my web sites. These flutes in the 2K~3K range allows one to do a lot of work on without specializing. These are what I consider to be the highest range in level and price of a non-specialist type of flute. And that's pushing it. They are borderline because if you are a well developed player they can be used as song specific shakuhachi (playing only certain songs on them using only the best qualities of the flute). You can also find dependable flutes in the 1K~2K range for sure, if you know how to evaluate them and look in the used flute market.  As far as what is good? I played Justin's flutes in Australia and recognized his abilities. I immediately thought the price was very reasonable and the flute very helpful for developing a player. Also, like Tairaku and Jon mentioned, I thought ahead a bit and imagined what he'll be making in the future too. I have never put "all my eggs in one maker's basket", meaning I've never just endorsed one maker but rather endorse FLUTES. I am happy to be able to support living makers, including Justin, as much as possible. We need flutes and we need various kinds of good flutes. As was also mentioned, most vintage (old) flutes are not good and will not help you develop if you play them too long. What you're buying is like a used car; you're buying a "repair job" from the beginning. That's mostly what I see on Ebay. It does get a bit ridiculous. Get something dependable as soon as you can.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-12-18 13:50:20)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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