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#1 2010-01-29 14:52:44

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Hole wear

I have not played any vintage shakuhachi, but ones I have seen in photos look like the edges of the holes get worn smooth by decades of play. Is there ever a point where repairs or mods would be made to the edges of the holes due to wear? I know that there are many who would consider it sacrilege to do that to a vintage flute, but I was just wondering.

Can it make a big enough difference to a master player?


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#2 2010-01-29 15:37:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hole wear

It's not something to repair. It's a desirable thing.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2010-01-29 16:08:16

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Hole wear

I read on Perry's site that that crisp, clean holes make atari easier. Since I am still a novice player, I don't notice much of a difference.

The first flutes I built, some I went a bit overboard on sanding the hole edges. With my recent builds, I do as little as possible. I do notice that on longer flutes where you use a piper's grip, crisp holes seem to work better for sealing, but my first shorter shakuhachi where I sanded the edges down a bit more feel so much more comfortable.


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#4 2010-01-29 18:07:38

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Hole wear

Taldaran wrote:

I read on Perry's site that that crisp, clean holes make atari easier. Since I am still a novice player, I don't notice much of a difference.

The first flutes I built, some I went a bit overboard on sanding the hole edges. With my recent builds, I do as little as possible. I do notice that on longer flutes where you use a piper's grip, crisp holes seem to work better for sealing, but my first shorter shakuhachi where I sanded the edges down a bit more feel so much more comfortable.

I would agree with Riley on that; I don't think it's a UNIVERSALLY desireable thing (maybe Tairaku likes it...). Anyone picking up a flute with crisp hole edges will get a better seal than one with worn down edges, except perhaps for the person that caused the wear.

Crisp edges also make a different sound than worn hole edges when you hit them sharply, and many useful effects can be made of that aspect.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2010-01-29 20:00:59

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Hole wear

I like the feel of worn holes. I also think sometimes they are easier to seal.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2010-01-29 20:10:33

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Hole wear

Some guys, Kakizakai for one, actually shave down the rim edges with a file. In think it may be a honkyoku thing. I had him do it to my 1st hole and it made it easier to get a deeper tsu meri but lost a little crispness slurring from ro to tsu meri. It's great for Yokoyama style honkyoku, maybe less desirable for sankyoku.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#7 2010-01-29 21:00:57

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Hole wear

Tairaku wrote:

I like the feel of worn holes. I also think sometimes they are easier to seal.

If holes with rounded edges are so desirable, why don't makers make 'em thataway? Wouldn't be difficult, and
shakuhachi makers have had a coupla two-three centuries to work that one out. Some fine makers even take
some pains to put a very small chamfer just at the inside edge of the tone holes, using a small piece
of abrasive paper rolled into a conical shape.

Last edited by edosan (2010-01-29 21:07:50)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2010-01-30 00:02:31

tingjunkie
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2010-01-22
Posts: 11

Re: Hole wear

edosan wrote:

Anyone picking up a flute with crisp hole edges will get a better seal than one with worn down edges, except perhaps for the person that caused the wear.

Crisp edges also make a different sound than worn hole edges when you hit them sharply, and many useful effects can be made of that aspect.

I don't know about the advanced fingering techniques, but I have to say- as a beginner- rounding the holes on my bamboo flute by just a tiny bit (it's a Perry Yung flute) made it much more playable for me. Much easier to get a clean steady sound. Keep in mind, I didn't round much though. Just a bit with some 300 grit sandpaper.

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#9 2010-01-30 00:26:27

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Hole wear

John Neptune mentioned that a sharp edge can cause turbulence within the vibrating bore, disrupting the clarity. He would very lightly chamfer the outer edge of the hole, the flow node.
The inner edge of the hole and edges of septum would also be bevelled for this reason and for other reasons.

My observation is that a rough outer edge makes a bad fit, a too rounded edge also makes a bad fit, particularly during fast changes where any slight pressure leak kills the sound.

But of course, every flute has its unique feel and usually that is what you are aligning into.


K.


Kia Kaha !

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#10 2010-01-30 04:09:05

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Hole wear

Actually, rounding the edges of the holes somewhat is ALWAYS desirable acoustically, both inside (undercutting) and outside. Sharp edges anywhere where air flows cause turbulence, robbing acoustic efficiency and actually hard-limiting sound output at higher dynamic levels. Acoustic scientists (especially Benade) say that even microscopic wear on the edges of sharp toneholes is noticeable to the player, and that the single greatest cause of playing differences in otherwise similar instruments is small variations in the edges of toneholes. Generally speaking, the rounder the better, although taking the sharp edge off is most important. Rounding is simple and will materially improve any flute.

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2010-01-30 04:22:05)

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#11 2010-01-30 05:14:59

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Hole wear

Karmajampa wrote:

My observation is that a rough outer edge makes a bad fit, a too rounded edge also makes a bad fit, particularly during fast changes where any slight pressure leak kills the sound.

My personal observation is that for completing a seal the hand and finger positioning is much, much more important than hole size and shape (that is for normally accepted shapes and sizes, I'm sure it would be easy to come up with extremes that don't work).

As far as the acoustic end of it, I'll take Toby's word for it.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2010-01-30 09:40:36

Colyn Petersen
Member
From: Omaha, NE
Registered: 2009-11-20
Posts: 46
Website

Re: Hole wear

As a flute maker of another sort of 13 years, I can confirm without a doubt that slightly chamfered finger holes inside and out can make a positive difference. Sometimes, especially on bass flutes, where you are pushing the length to bore ratio to the lower end and the finger spacing to reachable, it can be the difference between an acoustically functional instrument and not. In the midrange keys, I have also witnessed numerous times where it has turned an already technically functional good instrument into a great one. It can as well take a harsh sounding instrument and make it a smooth one. Benade confirms much of this with an experiment.  He took several modern manufactured flutes and did this breaking the sharp edge treatment. He then took another batch of these flutes without the treatment and had skilled musicians sample them. Seemingly, without really knowing why, the flutes with the treatment were described as having better personalities, having lost little to no functionality. Benade attributes the modern inclination to make a sharp edged finger hole to this as a previously unattainable goal with older tools. With modern tools, it became a mark of the master craftsman and elicited a sense of pride to do that which was difficult before. As with anything of course, moderation is good. There are always those that think that since a single cup of laundry detergent cleans a load well, a half a bottle must certainly do better.


Though images may appear on the surface of a mirror with clarity, they are neither in the mirror, nor sticking to its surface.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

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#13 2010-01-30 11:50:37

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Hole wear

Colyn Petersen wrote:

It can as well take a harsh sounding instrument and make it a smooth one.

A satisfying flute making moment for me is the anticipation of the smooth, fluid tone difference which occurs when a freshly drilled and undercut hole is slightly beveled around its top rim. Slightly beveling the bottom rim with a curved file or sandpaper strip on a curved hanger wire helps as well.

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