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#1 2006-07-26 03:47:10

John Roff
Member
From: South Africa
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 50

How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Does anyone know how old the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi is? I'm doing a couple of shakuhachi introduction workshops at an arts festival in a couple of months, and the fact would add to what I share with people.


Thanks

John


'Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.' - Gregory of Nyssa

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#2 2006-07-26 06:56:18

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Here is a quote from David Duncavage's web site:

"The shakuhachi is an end-blown bamboo flute varying from 1.3 to over 3 feet in length. It came into Japan from China at the end of the 7th century. From this period until as late as the 12th century it was used in gagaku (court music). Little is known of the music that was played on the shakuhachi at this time, although there are some flutes from this period preserved at Shoso-In in Nara, Japan. These flutes have 6 finger holes, and were made from thin walled bamboo."


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-07-26 08:28:53

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

According to Dr Riley Lee's dissertation "Yearning for the Bell", there 8 shakuhachi preserved in the Shosoin (the repository for the treasures for the Todaiji temple) in Japan that were gifts to Emperor Shomu and donated to Todaiji in 756 c.e. by the Empress Komyo, after the death of her husband.
This makes them 1350 years old, and all but one are said to be still playable.
Although, the shakuhachi of that time were not the same as we know them today. They were significantly shorter and smaller bored, with as many as 7 holes.
The form that we know today, the root end shakuhachi, did not come into existence until sometime in the 17th century.
I hope this helps.
Damon

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#4 2006-07-27 02:43:25

John Roff
Member
From: South Africa
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 50

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Thanks guys

Interesting how they were seen as treasures and given to emperors. I wonder if such honour could still be given today. That'd be a good tradition to start up again.

Thanks again

John


'Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.' - Gregory of Nyssa

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#5 2006-07-27 12:28:59

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

John Roff wrote:

Thanks guys

Interesting how they were seen as treasures and given to emperors. I wonder if such honour could still be given today. That'd be a good tradition to start up again.

Thanks again

John

Maybe I'll give some Mujitsu Taimu bamboo to Geo. Bush and John Howard. Then again maybe not!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2006-07-27 12:41:47

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

In re. the Mujitsu Taimu gifting:

I think it'd be appropriate if you gave it to them after it's all dried and shriveled...

Kinda fitting then.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2006-07-27 15:16:24

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

I am afraid that George and John might try to use the shakuhachi for some other traditional purpose rather than suizen.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#8 2006-07-27 15:32:04

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

On the other hand, if anyone out there actually belives that the gift of a shakuhachi would lead either of them to blow ro buki on a daily basis, I would be happy to be the first to contribute to the fund that would make that possible. Don't let it be said that people are incapable of change or that I don't put my money where my mouth is :-)


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#9 2006-07-27 15:39:41

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

edosan wrote:

In re. the Mujitsu Taimu gifting:

I think it'd be appropriate if you gave it to them after it's all dried and shriveled...

Kinda fitting then.

You're probably thinking of the giant kelp flute; Taimu is bamboo and won't shrivel like that.

Last edited by rpowers (2006-07-27 15:40:15)


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#10 2006-08-13 22:31:03

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

According to Yuko Kamisango's history of the shakuhachi, the ancient shakuhachi which are preserved today in Nara's Shoso-In treasury house were playable and probably used in gagaku in those days.  The bamboo flutes in the Shoso-In were made from hachiku (phyllostachys nigra, var. henonsis), while shakuhachi made from Edo up through modern times are in most cases made from madake (phyllostachys bambusoides), a bamboo with a wider external diameter.  Unfortunately Kamisango makes no mention of the giant kelp flute -- perhaps one must go back to Jomon and the shell mounds but kelp disintegrates, doesn't it? -- as being one of the ancient flutes but there are flutes made from jade, stone, and ivory in the Shoso-in in addition to those of bamboo.  Five of the flutes were noted to have been received from King Ui-Cha-Wang of the Paekche Dynasty in the mid-7th century as was pointed out earlier on this link; the Shoso-in itself wasn't constructed until the middle of the following century.  For those of you who do manage to get to Nara, make sure to take a look at the main bronze lantern in front of Todaiji temple with its sculpted images of bodhisattvas playing various gagaku instruments, including shakuhachi.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2006-08-13 22:32:48)

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#11 2006-08-13 22:39:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

For those of you who do manage to get to Nara, make sure to take a look at the main bronze lantern in front of Todaiji temple with its sculpted images of bodhisattvas playing various gagaku instruments, including shakuhachi.

That is fascinating. Do you have any photos, or links to photos?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2006-08-14 12:08:39

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

I just happened to have a copy of Heibonshas excellent book on Buddhist art at Todaiji within arms reach, so I scanned a few pix and slapped them on my website here:

http://www.tweakshop.com/Todaijilantern.html

Enjoy,

Elliot

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#13 2006-08-14 13:11:23

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Very fine!

Thanks,

eB

[OT: Although my days of chasing hi-end audio equipment are in the distant past, I totally dig your website and what you're about there...]

Last edited by edosan (2006-08-14 13:14:38)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2006-08-14 13:19:29

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Very nice pics, thank you.

H.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#15 2006-08-14 18:19:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

Elliot K wrote:

I just happened to have a copy of Heibonshas excellent book on Buddhist art at Todaiji within arms reach, so I scanned a few pix and slapped them on my website here:

http://www.tweakshop.com/Todaijilantern.html

Enjoy,

Elliot

Thanks that's amazing!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2006-08-14 20:07:22

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: How old is the oldest Bamboo Shakuhachi known?

That is reassuring Daniel as the grove in my field from which I am making my Shakuhachi is hachiku, phyllostachys nigra. Often referred to as 'inferior', now I can inform my customers of it's longevity.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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