Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Justin it is usually stated that Kinko used previous honkyoku as basis for new compositions and adaptations which were not the same as the source material.

Hi Brian
Where or by whom is this stated? I had heard the same from one source but never seen it written. When I told that to a Kinko-ryu teacher he said this was untrue.

I don't have the time to find citations right now but actually I've never heard otherwise. I can't remember if it's all verbally or if I've seen written sources as well. I agree with you that there is a homogeneous nature to the Kinko repertoire and I've always thought that indicated that Kinko wrote everything. The other repertoires gathered from various sources (such as Jin Nyodo's or Watazumi) have much more variety as one would expect. Perhaps the florid playing style which has developed has evened out what was once a more diverse group of pieces.

Hi Brian
Regarding the question of language gap, I have updated my above post which details the sources of my information. Not everyone is as outspoken as me and so I am not saying who the information comes from as I doubt they would like to be involved. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish but in my opinion the way a teacher/performer presents themselves verbally to groups of students is just as important, if not more so, than their website. Websites are indeed rare among teachers here and Okuda's has only one paragraph of info on it.

OK, enough about that.

Tairaku wrote:

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Justin it is usually stated that Kinko used previous honkyoku as basis for new compositions and adaptations which were not the same as the source material.

Hi Brian
Where or by whom is this stated? I had heard the same from one source but never seen it written. When I told that to a Kinko-ryu teacher he said this was untrue.

I don't have the time to find citations right now but actually I've never heard otherwise. I can't remember if it's all verbally or if I've seen written sources as well. I agree with you that there is a homogeneous nature to the Kinko repertoire and I've always thought that indicated that Kinko wrote everything. The other repertoires gathered from various sources (such as Jin Nyodo's or Watazumi) have much more variety as one would expect. Perhaps the florid playing style which has developed has evened out what was once a more diverse group of pieces.

If you do find any sources do let me know. I'll continue researching on this end too.
Regarding what you say about Jin Nyodo and Watazumi's repertoires being more varied, that would be expected since they learned the pieces from different teachers. So they are the 1st generation of their repertoire. The Kinko-ryu players we hear today are around 8th~10th or so generation in the lineage since the repertoire was put together. Naturally far more homogeneity should be expected. Even in the 1st generation the process starts, as I mentioned about Jin's Kimpu-ryu flavour or Watazumi's Kyushu flavour as examples. I have noticed increasing homogenization in 2nd and 3rd generation players of some schools also. Though this process can work somewhat differently today due to recordings. Now they can be used as a reference, so this could have the result of slowing or changing this gradual evolution.

John would be a good one to ask about ideas of how much Kurosawa Kinko is said to have changed the pieces.

Justin wrote:

Hi Brian
Regarding the question of language gap, I have updated my above post which details the sources of my information. Not everyone is as outspoken as me and so I am not saying who the information comes from as I doubt they would like to be involved. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish but in my opinion the way a teacher/performer presents themselves verbally to groups of students is just as important, if not more so, than their website. Websites are indeed rare among teachers here and Okuda's has only one paragraph of info on it.

OK, enough about that.

[.

Yeah probably enough. Because even if he did say that stuff, it's no more outrageous than the claims made by Watazumi for example and we still admire him........because of his playing. Sun Ra claimed to be from Saturn but that doesn't stop people who dispute that from liking his music.

Justin wrote:

And the funny thing is, I still admire Okuda. I get on very well with him when I meet him, and I think he's great for doing his best at finding his new direction for shakuhachi music. I like his music. It's just the other stuff  !

Well, I've been around him at a few lessons and also taught alongside him at the European Summer School a few years back. He's always been a gentleman and I have not heard any pompous stuff coming out of his mouth so I like him. I always thought his playing was pretty much his own interpretation of traditional tunes. So the lineage stuff never bothered me. The comparisons to Watazumi also do not bother me because I do think there's a similarity in the sense that they both take traditional materials and do semi-improvised versions of them. So it's a philosophical and methodological similarity. There are infinite variations to that. Thus if he doesn't sound exactly like Watazumi I can still see why he might think he's following in his footsteps. That is somewhat more of a Western way of looking at the question of influence. Not unusual if he comes from the viewpoint of jazz. In jazz it is not expected that the follower sounds like the original inspiration. Same goes for modern art. Painters are not expected to create paintings that look like their influences.

Larry Tyrrell wrote:

Hello,

After doing my best to plough through this topic it is impossible to ignore the passion and zeal it engenders.
However, wouldn't it be better categorized under History or, perhaps, Reviews? I personally find I know little more about teachers but much more about the forum participants at the end of it all. It all starts to sound like the old commercial where one housewife claims to have whiter clothes using her detergent than the other does.
Ah, now let's work on what white means...

Larry

What, Larry? You think forums might actually be for figurin' stuff out? The very idea!!!