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#1 2010-05-19 12:08:20

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Jin Nyodo is said to have learned a large number of honkyoku. In the scores officially published by his son Jin Nyosei there are, by my count 51 pieces (counting Tori-Kadozuke-Hachigaeshi as 3 instead of 1, and counting the 3 ura-choushi pieces as separate pieces) of which there are 47 koten honkyoku, the call and response "Yobitake Uketake", a gagaku piece, and 2 of Jin's compositions.

I would love to hear from members of the various branches of Jin Nyodo's school/lineage, what is the honkyoku repertoire in your schools (from Jin)? Do you have the same repertoire as in this set of published scores, or do you have fewer, or some pieces which are not contained in this collection?

Last edited by Justin (2010-05-19 22:18:18)

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#2 2010-05-19 13:52:00

Rick Riekert
Member
Registered: 2008-03-13
Posts: 100

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Justin, this is Ronnie Seldin's list for his Ki-Sui-An Dojo of Jin Nyodo style honkyoku which I am presently learning. There are other optional pieces (Horai and Shoganken Reibo come to mind) that are not included in the list:

1.    Daiwagaku                    
2.    Choshi
3.    Banshiki
4.    Kumoijishi
5.    Sashi
6.    Darani
7.    Sanya Sugagaki
8.    Takiochi
9.    Hifumi Hachikaeshi
10.    (Futaiken) Sanya
11.    Koku
12.    Mukaiji
13.    Kyorei
14.    Ajikan
15.    Yugure no Kyoku
16.    Azuma no Kyoku
17.    Jinbo Sanya
18.    Shirabe
19.    Sagariha
20.    Matsukaze Etenraku
21.    Sogei no Kyoku
22.    Shrinpo
23.    Neza-Sa-Ha no Koku
24.    Mujushin Kyoku
25.    (Futaiken) Reibo
26.    Akita Sugagaki
27.    Matsukaze (ura)
28.    Kyo Choshi
29.    (Echigo) Sanya Tsuru no Sugomori
30.    Sokaku Reibo
31.    Shishi no Kyoku
32.    Banji
33.    Tori
34.    Kado Tsuke
35.    Hachikaeshi
36.    Nagashi Reibo
37.    Sanya Seiran
38.    Shika no Tone


Mastery does not lay in the mastery of technique, but in penetrating the heart of the music. However, he who has not mastered the technique will not penetrate the heart of the music.
~ Hisamatsu Fûyô

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#3 2010-05-19 22:27:28

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Thanks for the list Rick. John and Rick you are both talking about the same (Ronnie's) branch aren't you? I'm noticing several in this list that aren't in the published set, and several that are in the set which are not in your list.

When you say there are several which are "optional", what sets them apart? Is it because they were not received from Kurahashi Yodo along with the main repertoire? Perhaps these are pieces in the published notation set which were not received from Kurahashi Yodo?

Are there other branches of Jin's lineage still existing outside Japan? I had thought Jin had actually had some direct students in the US. Does their lineage continue? Any references on their repertoire?

Last edited by Justin (2010-05-19 22:29:00)

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#4 2010-05-20 00:56:22

Jon K
Flutemaker
From: Melbourne, Florida
Registered: 2010-05-10
Posts: 8
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Hey Justin,

Teachers in the Jin Nyodo lineage here are either licensed by Ronnie or his students who teach or from Kurahashi Yodo II under Mujuan Dojo. Those are the only two to my knowledge. I think only Kurahashi Yodo II would be able to tell you why there are some pieces and not others etc. I wonder why not all of the honkyoku he collected. The assumption is that some weren't good and simply didn't make Jin Nyodo's "cut"!

About the set it was actually recordings made for his one US student who was a Japanese immigrant, I believe, and he made it late in life. It may not be complete or some pieces may have been left out for what ever reason. Of course these are just speculations on my part.

Jon~


flutedojo.com jinashi shakuhachi

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#5 2010-05-20 09:20:18

Rick Riekert
Member
Registered: 2008-03-13
Posts: 100

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Justin, I'm afraid it has never occurred to me to ask why there are "optional" pieces and what sets them apart, as I have my hands full wrestling with the "essential" pieces and suspect I'll be ashes in an urn long before I play even a modest number of those to my satisfaction.  However, I'm sure there are others on the list who can give you the lowdown.


Mastery does not lay in the mastery of technique, but in penetrating the heart of the music. However, he who has not mastered the technique will not penetrate the heart of the music.
~ Hisamatsu Fûyô

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#6 2010-05-20 22:32:35

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Jon Kypros wrote:

II would be able to tell you why there are some pieces and not others etc. I wonder why not all of the honkyoku he collected. The assumption is that some weren't good and simply didn't make Jin Nyodo's "cut"!

Jon~

I've read somewhere that Jin may have learned over 100 honkyoku. If that's true then what we're talking about here could represent about one third of the pieces he learned. Perhaps he didn't teach all his students the whole repertoire, or perhaps he didn't even play all the pieces himself, selecting the ones he wanted to keep. If Kurahashi Yodo's repertoire was so similar to the student of Jin's in the US then that implies perhaps there was a standard selection of pieces Jin was teaching. Ronnie perhaps you can shed some light on this? Did Kurahashi Yodo ever talk about this?

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#7 2010-05-21 01:24:00

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

I have never heard Ronnie, Kurahashi Yodo II or Jim refer to our style as Jin Nyodo "ryu" or "school". They consider it a branch of Kinko Ryu.

We learn those honkyoku on the list in order to get our Jun Shihan. After that there are other "optional" pieces in the sense that they are in the repertoire but you don't have to learn them in order to have your Jun Shihan. I forgot what the optional honkyoku are but I think several are "Tsuru" variations including the Myoan one, "Horai", "Chikugo Sashi", "Ginryu no Kyoku". And others.

There are a few pieces in Jin's notation that are not on the recordings, and vice versa but most of it overlaps. We can assume in some cases he knew more than he recorded. For example he was a Nezasaha player from Aomori so he probably knew all the pieces in urajoshi (and other) but only notated two of them.

Some of the stuff we learn did not come from Jin Nyodo but came from Kurahashi Yodo. "Sogei no Kyoku" and "Etenraku" for example. I think those are Kurahashi Yodo arrangements. "Banji" is a piece that came to light after Jin's passing. It is either a rediscovered old song or a hoax made to look like one.

I got a pile of notation from the estate of Jin's Japanese student in LA (Yamaguchi Hodo I think was his name) and it's the same stuff that was published in deluxe form recently. So I guess that's the teaching repertoire.

Justin the story you mention might echo what Kurahashi Yodo II (Yoshio) told me-that Jin Nyodo had memorized about 185 gaikyoku pieces (not honkyoku). Kurahashi said his dad tried to catch Jin out with a very obscure one but Jin was able to play along without looking at the notation. This is an amazing feat of memory.

Maybe if you read the liner notes for the CD set there will be more information. There's also an autobiography. It would be great if one of our volunteers got ahold of that and translated it for our edification. Or you could ask Zenyoji, Ishibashi or Jin Nyosei I suppose if you want to get to the bottom of the full Jin Nyodo repertoire question.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2010-05-21 08:01:00

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Tairaku wrote:

We learn about 40 or 45 specific honkyoku in order to get our Jun Shihan. After that there are other "optional" pieces in the sense that they are in the repertoire but you don't have to learn them in order to have your Jun Shihan.

Hi Brian
How many honkyoku are "optional". Is there a list anywhere? The two mentioned by Rick were ones which were in the published set but not in the repertoire of 38 which Rick detailed. Are there any "optional" pieces which are not in the published set?

Tairaku wrote:

There are a few pieces in Jin's notation that are not on the recordings, and vice versa but most of it overlaps. We can assume in some cases he knew more than he recorded. For example he was a Nezasaha player from Aomori so he probably knew all the pieces in urajoshi but only notated two of them.

Which pieces from the recordings were not in the notation? I thought I saw all of the recordings among the published notation.
Yes I wouldn't be surprised is he had played more of the urachoshi pieces. I think they perhaps more attractive when you only have 10 honkyoku in your repertoire. (For those who don't know, the urachoshi pieces are the same pieces but in different keys). But as Jin had other repertoires to chose from I guess he only kept those he valued the most. I wouldn't be surprised if he had learned more from other the other schools he studied as well which are not included in this collection.

Thanks for the info on Yamaguchi - that supports the idea of this being the basic repertoire Jin was teaching.

Last edited by Justin (2010-05-21 08:01:44)

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#9 2010-05-21 09:06:10

Rick Riekert
Member
Registered: 2008-03-13
Posts: 100

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Justin, here is Ronnie's full list of optional honkyoku, not including 9 shinkyoku and a half dozen of his own neo-honkyoku:

1) Gin-ryu Koku
2) Ifu-Sashi
3) Kyushu Reibo
4) Ikan-ryu Rokudan
5) Renbo-Nagashi
6) Shirabe (Ura)
7) (Betsuden) Echigo Sanya
8) Makaiji-Reibo
9) Yamato Choshi
10) Shin-Kyorei
11) Jyaku-Shin (Mujuan-Kurahashi)
12) Tsuru No Sugomori (Renpoken)
13) Tsuru No Sugomori (Futaiken)
14) Tsuru No Sugomori (Meian)
15) Echigo Reibo
16) Miagi Reibo)
17) Horai
18) Yori Dake, Uki Daki


Mastery does not lay in the mastery of technique, but in penetrating the heart of the music. However, he who has not mastered the technique will not penetrate the heart of the music.
~ Hisamatsu Fûyô

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#10 2010-05-21 21:41:41

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Rick, thanks for the list again! Are all these pieces Jin's notation? (Except the ones composed by Kurahashi Yodo of course).
I'm noticing Iyo Renbo is not in either of your lists for Ronnie's repertoire. But I did study this piece from Kurahashi Yodo's son (Yodo II). Any ideas why that's missing? (I really like this piece).

So comparing the repertoire of Ronnie's school (including the optional pieces) with the published scores, there are still pieces missing/extra in each repertoire, but mostly they are the same. I wonder if one of you can answer, in the main repertoire of Ronnie's school you have written "29.    (Echigo) Sanya Tsuru no Sugomori ". There is a piece I know of as "Sanya no Sugomori", alternatively known as "Jimbo Sugomori". Is this that piece, or is this 2 pieces, Sanya, and Tsuru no Sugomori, or is it perhaps another piece?

Jon thanks for the link to the article. Yes that's one of the places I had seen reference to the number of honkyoku Jin had studied, in this case stating 153 (which could also perhaps be calculated at 139?). That's why I've been wondering what pieces his various students learned. So far this may indicate that he only transmitted about one third of his repertoire. I will continue researching this here in Japan to see if I can find out more.

Last edited by Justin (2010-05-21 21:45:30)

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#11 2010-05-22 02:53:25

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Justin wrote:

Rick, thanks for the list again! Are all these pieces Jin's notation? (Except the ones composed by Kurahashi Yodo of course).
I'm noticing Iyo Renbo is not in either of your lists for Ronnie's repertoire. But I did study this piece from Kurahashi Yodo's son (Yodo II). Any ideas why that's missing? (I really like this piece).

So comparing the repertoire of Ronnie's school (including the optional pieces) with the published scores, there are still pieces missing/extra in each repertoire, but mostly they are the same. I wonder if one of you can answer, in the main repertoire of Ronnie's school you have written "29.    (Echigo) Sanya Tsuru no Sugomori ". There is a piece I know of as "Sanya no Sugomori", alternatively known as "Jimbo Sugomori". Is this that piece, or is this 2 pieces, Sanya, and Tsuru no Sugomori, or is it perhaps another piece?

Jon thanks for the link to the article. Yes that's one of the places I had seen reference to the number of honkyoku Jin had studied, in this case stating 153 (which could also perhaps be calculated at 139?). That's why I've been wondering what pieces his various students learned. So far this may indicate that he only transmitted about one third of his repertoire. I will continue researching this here in Japan to see if I can find out more.

Re: Iyo Renbo, it's in his notation but I don't think it's on his recordings. We don't learn it but Kurahashi Yodo II has recorded it so.........maybe Kurahashi Yodo Sr. or Ronnie didn't know it or like it.

There are a few mistakes in that list a few posts up where two pieces are conflated into one. "Mukaiji Etenraku" are obviously "Mukaiji" and "Etenraku". Similarly "Echigo Sanya" and "Tsuru no Sugomori".

Regarding these pieces I will tell you whose notation it is.

1) Gin-ryu Koku (Yodo)
2) Ifu-Sashi (Yodo) this is a piece Kurahashi Yodo learned from a minyo player and notated.
3) Kyushu Reibo (Yodo)
4) Ikan-ryu Rokudan (Yodo)
5) Renbo-Nagashi (Yodo)
6) Shirabe (Ura) (Yodo)
7) (Betsuden) Echigo Sanya (Yodo)
8) Makaiji-Reibo (Yodo)
9) Yamato Choshi (Yodo)
10) Shin-Kyorei (Yodo)
11) Jyaku-Shin (Mujuan-Kurahashi) (Yodo)
12) Tsuru No Sugomori (Renpoken) (Yodo)
13) Tsuru No Sugomori (Futaiken) (Yodo)
14) Tsuru No Sugomori (Meian) (Jin Nyodo)
15) Echigo Reibo (Yodo)
16) Miagi Reibo) (Yodo)
17) Horai (Jin Nyodo)
18) Yori Dake, Uki Daki (Jin Nyodo)

The fact that most of this notation is in Yodo's hand is insignificant because he notated a lot of this stuff despite the fact that it's also in Jin's hand. Ronnie's ex-wife also did some of the notation we use. She may have done some of the stuff I'm attributing to Yodo Sr. Maybe Ronnie can clear that up.

Another piece that's in the Jin Nyodo notation but I don't think he recorded and that we don't learn is the gagaku piece "Somakusha". There may be more but I'm not being systematic here.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2010-05-22 05:32:45

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Thanks very much Brian. That Ifu Sashi had me wondering, so now that makes a lot of sense that it came from Yodo. About Echigo Sanya in the first list, are you sure that's simply meant to be two separate pieces? The reason I ask is because, apart from the existence of a piece called Sanya no Sugomori for which this could be a typo, there is also Echigo Sanya in the "optional" list. If it really is Echigo Sanya in both lists, perhaps Yodo learned it also from someone other than Jin and taught that version separately? Perhaps the same person he learned Miyagi Reibo, which is another name for Futaiken Reibo?

Mukaiji-Reibo and Shin-Kyorei in the optional list - are they Kinko-ryu?

Last edited by Justin (2010-05-22 05:34:46)

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#13 2010-05-22 06:53:53

Rick Riekert
Member
Registered: 2008-03-13
Posts: 100

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Brian, thanks for pointing out the errors on the first list. Justin, the Echigo Sanya in the optional list is Betsuden Echigo Sanya, a separate version of Echigo Sanya which resembles Jinbo Sanya. I also mentioned in my first post that Shoganken Reibo was optional and then failed to list it anywhere. It is a required piece.


Mastery does not lay in the mastery of technique, but in penetrating the heart of the music. However, he who has not mastered the technique will not penetrate the heart of the music.
~ Hisamatsu Fûyô

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#14 2010-05-22 08:14:18

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Justin wrote:

Thanks very much Brian. That Ifu Sashi had me wondering, so now that makes a lot of sense that it came from Yodo. About Echigo Sanya in the first list, are you sure that's simply meant to be two separate pieces? The reason I ask is because, apart from the existence of a piece called Sanya no Sugomori for which this could be a typo, there is also Echigo Sanya in the "optional" list. If it really is Echigo Sanya in both lists, perhaps Yodo learned it also from someone other than Jin and taught that version separately? Perhaps the same person he learned Miyagi Reibo, which is another name for Futaiken Reibo?

Mukaiji-Reibo and Shin-Kyorei in the optional list - are they Kinko-ryu?

I recall Kurahashi Sensei saying that Ifu Sashi was a rare "Minyo" honkyoku and that his dad basically salvaged it from obscurity by notating it.

Mukaiji Reibo and Shin Kyorei are Kinko.

Jin Nyodo studied Kinko from Miura Kindo as you know. But apparently he only saw fit to transmit about 10 Kinko honkyoku in his repertoire. I have heard it said that he thought his versions of those brought back some of the rustic zen flavor of the originals before they became somewhat decadent. I don't know how accurate those statements are. He may have learned all 36 and just incorporated the 10 faves into his ouvre, which would account for some of the discrepancy you see in the number of honkyoku he is supposed to have learned versus what he actually played and taught.

I never heard of Sanya no Sugomori, which temple is it supposed to come from?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2010-05-22 16:47:29

James Nyoraku Schlefer
Dai Shihan
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 104
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

I have a version of "Gin Ryu Koku" in Nyodo's hand, but I did notice that it's not part of the published collection.

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#16 2010-05-22 21:44:59

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

James Nyoraku Schlefer wrote:

I have a version of "Gin Ryu Koku" in Nyodo's hand, but I did notice that it's not part of the published collection.

Hi James
Ginryu Koku is in the notation collection. It's the last piece.

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#17 2010-05-22 22:07:46

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jin Nyodo school's repertoire

Tairaku wrote:

Mukaiji Reibo and Shin Kyorei are Kinko.

Jin Nyodo studied Kinko from Miura Kindo as you know. But apparently he only saw fit to transmit about 10 Kinko honkyoku in his repertoire. I have heard it said that he thought his versions of those brought back some of the rustic zen flavor of the originals before they became somewhat decadent. I don't know how accurate those statements are. He may have learned all 36 and just incorporated the 10 faves into his ouvre, which would account for some of the discrepancy you see in the number of honkyoku he is supposed to have learned versus what he actually played and taught.

As those 2 were in Yodo's hand I had been wondering whether he might have learned them from one of his other teachers, perhaps Kawase Junsuke?

Tairaku wrote:

I never heard of Sanya no Sugomori, which temple is it supposed to come from?

It is said to have come from Rempoken, and was one of Jimbo Masanosuke's pieces.

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