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#1 2010-09-14 18:54:16

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Atari 'pops'

There is a quality of sound I hear often within an Atari and on other fingering techniques that has a percussive 'popping' sound.
It feels like the removal of the finger causes a vacuum 'pop'.
If I hit a hard Atari with my index finger from some height I can induce this if the volume of the paired note is not too loud.
Also, when moving from Ro kan to Ri otsu I remove my index finger covering Re beforeremoving my other three fingers, I get this interestingintermediate note withan almost percussive pop'

There seem to only be a select number of fingerings that cause this effect, can anyone show me more of these or explain what the technique is that I am hearing.

Sorry if my explanation is not any clearer.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#2 2010-09-15 14:49:05

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Hi Karmajanpa!

Me and a friend talked about those special sounds that only a few flutes can give at some fingerings, with diferent dinamics, and so on...

One sound like this that I like a lot, is to play U with hole 1 shaded and beat and ope hole 3... some flutes can make a louder and wet percusive sound, really. Chikuzen sensei use to teach some nice things about this!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#3 2010-09-15 15:46:31

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Great, thanks, I must develop my ring fingers for Atari use, they are not as strong as my index fingers.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#4 2010-09-15 17:24:11

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Karmajampa wrote:

There seem to only be a select number of fingerings that cause this effect, can anyone show me more of these or explain what the technique is that I am hearing.

I may be mistaken here, as your description doesn't perfectly jibe with what I'm thinking, but there is a common sound in shakuhachi playing that is created often (more often for some players, hardly ever for others) at the very end of a note, where there is a distinct popping sound caused by the very quick opening of some or all the holes on the flute. Chikuzen is wont to do this, and I'll bet that's what Henrique is referring to. I'll try to find an audio example of it and put it on a host somewhere.

Sometimes that sound is very small, snappy and subtle, or it can be more heavy-handed. It's possible to get a very abrupt initial attack on a note by quickly lifting the appropriate finger, but I've not heard it make an audible pop.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2010-09-15 17:59:49

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Atari 'pops'

I think you are onto what I am trying to describe ed.
For example on the first track of J K Neptunes 'words Can't Go There' I hear several applications, in that first shift from kan to otsu, (I have not ascertained the note as I don't have that length of flute yet).

There is a little at the end of his meri bend just affter the long fluttering crescendo, not the best examples, sorry.

I really like these delicate, poignant, seemingly accidental, but not, rresponses. There is probably aJapanese term for them. 'Pop' is my quick term for the small burst of energy they present.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#6 2010-09-15 19:08:04

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Hi Kel!

Do you think you can cut a phrase out of the Neptune song and put it somewhere just to allow us to hear it? Just one phrase, I think he will not became sad with that!

It would be nice!


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#7 2010-09-15 19:13:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Karmajampa wrote:

I think you are onto what I am trying to describe ed.
For example on the first track of J K Neptunes 'words Can't Go There' I hear several applications, in that first shift from kan to otsu, (I have not ascertained the note as I don't have that length of flute yet).

There is a little at the end of his meri bend just affter the long fluttering crescendo, not the best examples, sorry.

I really like these delicate, poignant, seemingly accidental, but not, rresponses. There is probably aJapanese term for them. 'Pop' is my quick term for the small burst of energy they present.

K.

Actually, what he's doing there is not what I was referring to. That's a 2.4, and what he's doing there is playing Re kan and lightly tapping on the first hole, speeding up the tapping, then dropping down the octave and continuing the tapping, slowing it down. Sort of an elaborate 'bouncing ball' figure.

To get that effect, the hole must be hit very accurately; dead center.

I'll try to come up with some examples of what I mean, although it does seem that you're talking about variations on hole-hitting here.

Last edited by edosan (2010-09-15 19:14:53)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2010-09-15 19:36:50

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Henrique, hopefully Ed will provide some examples, I would if I knew how to post, I may be able to post to Ed.

However, as Ed says, there are several techniques that give these delicate sounds, I am interested in them all.

Ed, yes, that tapping is also something I came up with, I thought it may be Re where one has a bunch of open holes to play with, and they do not all give the desired sound.
What is it you were originally thinking of ?
These sounds do not concur withan Atari.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#9 2010-09-15 21:19:36

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Karmajampa wrote:

Henrique, hopefully Ed will provide some examples, I would if I knew how to post, I may be able to post to Ed.

However, as Ed says, there are several techniques that give these delicate sounds, I am interested in them all.

Here's an edit from a Minyo called 'Taiko Sen', played by Riley Lee. It's a tad noisy, as it was dubbed from a cassette years ago. Rather than calling this a technique, I'd call it a 'characteristic' or 'idiosyncracy'. Whether it's desirable or not is pretty subjective. I like it when it's scattered here and there, rather than a regularly occurring thing. Listen closely to the ENDS of notes, and occasionally, you'll hear a subtle but distinct 'pop', caused by opening holes, on purpose, or inadvertently, right at the end of a phrase:

     http://MySpaceFileHosting.com/ico/mp3.gif Taiko_Sen_(1.7RL).mp3

This is a pretty subtle example. Some players seem to be much more deliberate, even habitual, with it. I don't think Riley even does it much anymore; this recording is from mid 80's, when he was still a baby shakuhachi player (still, it's one of my favorite albums for learning).

Last edited by edosan (2010-09-15 21:23:32)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#10 2010-09-15 21:23:21

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
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Re: Atari 'pops'

The sound that Ed may be referring to is one that typically isn't written into music and is a kind of pressure release at the end of a note.  It's done by opening any number of holes above the note that you are playing just at the end of the breath/sound.  When done within a sequence of notes, it gives that 'popping' sound.  Though it isn't an atari, it can be executed with an atari following it to give a more defined edge to the tail of the sound and accentuates the attack on the following note.


shakuhachi flute
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with holes in my bones

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#11 2010-09-15 21:24:05

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Jeff Cairns wrote:

The sound that Ed may be referring to is one that typically isn't written into music and is a kind of pressure release at the end of a note.  It's done by opening any number of holes above the note that you are playing just at the end of the breath/sound.  When done within a sequence of notes, it gives that 'popping' sound.  Though it isn't an atari, it can be executed with an atari following it to give a more defined edge to the tail of the sound and accentuates the attack on the following note.

This is exactly it...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#12 2010-09-15 22:11:42

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Thanks Jeff and Ed, yes, this is definitely one of the examples I am interested in.
This one sounds, as you say Jeff, to be created when the finger is released, the other caused by the finger hitting. The sounds are subtly similar, elusive in some fingerings.

They also seem to be exclusively Shakuhachi, as far as I have noticed.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#13 2010-09-15 23:05:53

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Here is a clip from the John Neptune piece (first track on 'Words Can't Go There') that Karmajampa mentioned upthread:

     http://MySpaceFileHosting.com/ico/mp3.gif NeptunePop.mp3

Lots of fun stuff in there....


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2010-09-15 23:37:14

Lorka
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Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Atari 'pops'

Does Yamaguchi Goro tend to do this sound effect alot?  I think I know what is being referred to, but am not sure.  Seems like you can get this sound by suddenly pulling the flute away from you at the end of a note.  It also seems like a trick/effect that could easily be abused, if used too much.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#15 2010-09-16 00:30:14

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Atari 'pops'

Lorka wrote:

Seems like you can get this sound by suddenly pulling the flute away from you at the end of a note.  It also seems like a trick/effect that could easily be abused, if used too much.

You get the effect by slightly cracking some of the closed holes, right at the end of a phrase. Almost like just relaxing the grip a bit. The flute stays put. I think it should be used, if at all, sparingly, and it can be a pleasant addition if used carefully. Don't know about Yamaguchi Goro's use of it, but I doubt it. Sometimes it's so subtle that it can't be heard unless you're right on top of the player.

Last edited by edosan (2010-09-16 00:31:17)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#16 2010-09-16 01:34:43

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Atari 'pops'

I can hear how it could be regarded, particularly by'purists', as a messy fingering change, a bit like the squeak a bright new acoustic guitar string makes when a finger is shifted sideways rather than upwards.
The timing to get a strong, definite sound, is very tight, so this would takeparticular attention if deliberate.

Then good Atari also takes good timing, like that bit in "Nesting Cranes" indicating flying wings.
And the timing for 'Koro koro'.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#17 2010-09-16 07:39:59

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Atari 'pops'

edosan wrote:

Lorka wrote:

Seems like you can get this sound by suddenly pulling the flute away from you at the end of a note.  It also seems like a trick/effect that could easily be abused, if used too much.

You get the effect by slightly cracking some of the closed holes, right at the end of a phrase. Almost like just relaxing the grip a bit. The flute stays put. I think it should be used, if at all, sparingly, and it can be a pleasant addition if used carefully. Don't know about Yamaguchi Goro's use of it, but I doubt it. Sometimes it's so subtle that it can't be heard unless you're right on top of the player.

It seems like a good way to keep the end of a note from dropping in pitch when it's an abrupt decay.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#18 2010-09-16 08:38:08

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Atari 'pops'

I recall Kawase Junsuke III using it extensively in a honkyoku piece in a concert here in Kumamoto.  My sensei who is Kawase's deshi simply answered when I questioned him about it, 'yeah, he likes doing that.'  As such, K., it's not an issue of sloppy fingering, but rather one of conscious choice.  I agree with Ed that you can go overboard with it just as Kawase sensei did that day, even though he seemed to thoroughly enjoy himself doing it.  That being said, in practice, try to do it and once you've got it, go overboard with it.  Soon enough...hopefully... taste will settle in and you'll have that as part of your arsenal.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#19 2010-09-16 09:06:11

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Atari 'pops'

Thanks for the sound file Ed!

I was really not thinking about this specific hole hit.

There are some Watazumi recordings in which he make some very cool (loud too) trill with open holes that do not make the note jump out (just give the pops and some small pitch waving), as is the case when hitting hole one while playing Re.
In "regular atari places" the hit over a hole use to change the note more extensivelly giving the articulation, that "reapearing of note".

The articulation using the hole one on hitting is notated as Ru in sankyoku, right?


Omnia mea mecum porto

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