Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Justin wrote:

...  we can either conclude that Watazumi taught them differently, or just that each students who taught, taught in a different way. This also may depend on how much or to what level they were able to receive what Watazumi taught.

...  I've learned some pieces for example from Yamaue Getsuzan's lineage which Yamaue learned from Watazumi when Watazumi was still living here in Hakata, in his 20's. That was before he met some of his other teachers (Yamaue was the one who introduced him to Uramoto Setcho, for example) and so the form of those pieces is somewhat different from how I learned them from Yokoyama's lineage, Yokoyama having learned from Watazumi after he moved to Tokyo.

So much difference between the points of reference!

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So translating from my own cryptogram ...

Its remarkable, to me at least, that a figure with such influence on the modern shakuhachi world has so little known about him or the way he taught. You talk about knowing two direct students of Watazumi. That's got to be like winning the Irish Sweepstakes in shakuhachidom ... at least on this side of the Great Ocean. Then to hear that each student's experience was so disparate. It's like trying to catch fog.

Then you relate that Yamaue Getsuzan learned from Watazumi in his 20's. So we're talking about the 1930s. And this is before he met Uramoto Setcho. I was under the impression that Watazumi's recordings go back as far as 1935 ...

It's good we have you as an embed-reporter, Justin, because maybe there's a chance we can connect more dots with this mytho-proportioned figure.

Last edited by Moran from Planet X (2010-10-12 03:51:04)

Justin wrote:

A friend of mine studied from 2 of Watazumi's students (neither of which were Yokoyama Katsuya) and he said they both taught quite differently from each other. That doesn't exactly answer your question, but we can either conclude that Watazumi taught them differently, or just that each students who taught, taught in a different way. This also may depend on how much or to what level they were able to receive what Watazumi taught.

I too have heard 2 other of Watazumido's direct students. Yes, VERY different. I have also come to the conclusion that Watazumido was not teaching pieces as they sound on recordings at all (obviously). I also find it fascinating that Watazumi truly, truly did not play pieces the same every time. More that any shakuhachi player that I have ever heard. In my opinion this is his True gift to the shakuhachi tradition. Because I can clearly see that he completely embodied the Fuke shakuhachi tradition, yet it could not contain him. I have spoken with Brian about this in the past. Many of the pieces, if you study the original versions, are very minimal. NOT minimal in depth, but minimal in melody. It seems that Watazumi made Honkyoku more melodic in a sense. Also, something I never came across until I studied with my Sensei in Japan is the teaching and practice of ONLY SOUND; NON-melodic, NON-music. Not as an idea, but as ACTION. This is also true with my friend that studied with Higashi Myogi (One of Watazumi's top deshis). It was TRULY starting over from the beginning. Very humbling, yet effective. I used to revel in Watazumido's playing; studying it from recordings. I thought that this way a way to embody its essence as this is how you learn Western forms such as Jazz. But my Sensei broke of this habit completely. Is was quite refreshing and invigorating. Yet it is difficult to play basics and a few pieces for 10 or more years. But I think then you start to plummet the depths. Know what I mean?

-Prem

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Is there _any_one who took lessons from Watazumi who then went on to teach others just as he had learned it from Watazumi who then went on to teach it to someone else ... who we know of?

I suspect not, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

I had some lessons and spent a lot of time with... gosh I forget his name (not good to be lacking sleep and in England where I don't have my address book)... the one of W's students that made shakuhachi that Mejiro was selling before. He inherited Watazumi's shakuhachi (Watazumi's wish). He died in 2007. Anyway... his name will come sooner or later... he was Watazumi's closest student... and in my opinion, he sounded close enough....! BUT he certainly was not Watazumi (well, I never heard Watazumi live).

You are right, Prem. Watazumi played his pieces VERY different each time, developed all the time and changed - not only to mood and the time of the day - but I think W was constantly developing his playing style. A great example of the spirit of shakuhachi music: tradition yes - but not stagnating.

Kiku Day wrote:

I had some lessons and spent a lot of time with... gosh I forget his name (not good to be lacking sleep and in England where I don't have my address book)... the one of W's students that made shakuhachi that Mejiro was selling before. He inherited Watazumi's shakuhachi (Watazumi's wish). He died in 2007. Anyway... his name will come sooner or later... he was Watazumi's closest student... and in my opinion, he sounded close enough....! BUT he certainly was not Watazumi (well, I never heard Watazumi live).

The hanko on his instruments was "Mugai" ?

The feeling I get about Watasumi is that first he was a Zen practitioner seconndly a Shakuhachi player. He too, used melodies, but was not fooled by them.

If you meet Watasumi on the road, kill him !

K.

Karmajampa wrote:

... He too, used melodies, but was not fooled by them.

If you meet Watasumi on the road, kill him !

madoherty wrote:

Moran from Planet X wrote:

So, perhaps, Watazumi and these teachers Prem is referring to are teaching a form of Yoga rather than a type of music?

Certainly techniques were passed, and are passed down... but that is not all.

Gak! ...  It's "ZENspeak" !!!!

AAAaaaaaaaarrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Thank you, though.  <knocks forehead on cold stone floor three times>

Last edited by Moran from Planet X (2010-10-13 17:58:50)

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

To go beyond ZENspeak and perhaps into the realm of ZENspace, I was looking at your avatar, Moran from Planet X, and just wondered if you were trying to make a statement about the future history of shakuhachi by juxtaposing photos of an astronaut and a komuso?  Perhaps you've heard that one of the current NASA astronaut candidates is a shakuhachi player?; that information is classified, however, so you won't see it on the NASA bio page.

Interestingly this is not as far fetched as it sounds. One of Nyoraku's best friends is an astronaut and brought Jim's CD into orbit with him and listened to it. So indeed shakuhachi has been in space.

I was obviously kidding about the classified info part but one of the new NASA guys, a Canadian (David Saint Jacques), studied shakuhachi for several years under our iemoto, Fuji Jido, up in Tokyo (and actually got his first sound out of the instrument down here in Kochi), though that information is not noted on his official bio.  He's got other relevant stuff on there such as his being an astronomer and a medical doctor, but as you and Brian both noted, the precedent has already been set, though I don't believe anyone has yet played the shakuhachi in outer space.  I did notice that one of the other NASA astronauts had tin whistle listed as a hobby, however...

Moran from Planet X wrote:

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

I did notice that one of the other NASA astronauts had tin whistle listed as a hobby, however...

That's been done too. Jean Luc Picard, Captain of the Enterprise, played tin whistle, in an alternate universe, for an entire episode of Star Trek The Next Generation.

That counts, doesn't it?

You're off your dang meds again, ain'tcha X?

And then there was the later episode where he played his flute in the jeffries tubes because of the acoustics, and the lady with the rolled up piano played a duet with him.

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Perhaps you've heard that one of the current NASA astronaut candidates is a shakuhachi player?; that information is classified, however, so you won't see it on the NASA bio page.

It seems logical enough, as shakuhachi is the only instrument which makes music in space (albeit a lot of 'ma').

Zak

And we know that when the silver ships finally make it to Earth the first words they aliens are going to say is "Take me to your shakuhachi player."