Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

PSTL · 2007-02-03 12:03:34

It's been my understanding that traditional shakuhachi music is totally influenced from a male perspective. I haven't, until today, found any indication that there was a female influence in the creation of the music.

I know that Abbess Mugai Nyodai (1223-1298) was the first female Zen master in Japan and that there have been many female performers. I don't know of any original historic scores that were composed by women.

I read the following in another index, and I'm wondering now if the female influence might have come from the vocal tradition.

radiOgnome: "Sorry if this isn't shakuhachi related, but to add some shakuhachi thought to the post, does traditional shakuhachi music reflect the Japanese vocal music inflections? That Japanese vocal music sounds really bizarre to my western ears, and I'm thinking it might."

eB: "Most of Japanese traditional music emanates FROM the vocal tradition, which is a wellspring in Japanese traditional music. So, it's more the other way around."

I would be interested in a discussion on this topic. If there is not a female influence in the historical compositions, then I would venture to say that there are plenty of shakuhachi compositions yet to be written from the female perspective.

Maybe I just have too much time on my hands, but I do wonder. Any thoughts?

Thanks for reading.

edosan · 2007-02-03 12:59:35

I'm not talking about Zen, per se, but singing.

eB

Josh · 2007-02-04 09:53:00

PSTL,
Interesting topic you bring up. I don't know of any shakuhachi songs composed by a female player. But there are not many honkyoku that are even attributed to a specific person, male or female. It seems that traditionally the composer was not very important in the honkyoku music making process. Songs like Koku and Mukaiji are seen as having a deeper meaning of coming to someone in a dream, rather than a person actually intellectually composing something.
I think that if these Zen honkyoku (and any music for that matter) we play are played from the soul, it will go beyond gender and ethnicity and touch something deeper.
Sorry if this is off the topic slightly. Red wine and the keyboard don't always mix Happy blowing and happy drinking.

-Josh

edosan · 2007-02-04 11:53:42

It's not about composers, or attribution, but vocalization being a source/influence for musical structure in Japanese traditional music.

For example, most ethnomusicologists agree that the chanting of the sutras was formative in the the development of honkyoku.

Minyo and ancient Japanese solo vocals directly influenced the development of Jiuta and Gaikyoku and Sankyoku instrumentation,
eg, the addition of the shakuhachi, which is a relatively late arrival to those scenes, compared to other instruments.

Capice?

eB

dstone · 2007-02-04 15:40:20

Of course the source/inspiration for the music might be an established body of vocal or chanting work. But all the biases and preferences of the people involved to create and pass along the message in another medium will be unavoidable.

Hypothetical... How much different do you think a Kyorei or Koku today would sound if most of the monks, teachers, and students along its oral and written chain were female? Or wealthy merchants? Or prisoners? No better or worse and easily just as relevant to everyone, but a different result would be unavoidable, I think. Isn't this the beauty of internalizing music given to you, mixing it with your own sound, and giving it back? Sorry if this is a modern idea -- I have no idea if such a concept was in the minds of honkyoku students of past.

The Koku that my teacher gives me today might be strongly flavored from monks or Buddhists or Katsuya Yokoyama or Watazumi or whoever. I think all that matters is that I can someday make it mine and give it back to someone interested in listening.

-Darren.

geni · 2007-02-04 16:32:29

I would say that...

if you play songs with large flutes -sounds like a man voice .

If you play them with small flutes (higher) -sound like a female voice.

People who have Amazing Slow Downer , can play with that. Take a male singer, transport the song high and it will sound like a women. (close enough). Do the some thing for female voice...it will sound like a man.

Last edited by geni (2007-02-04 20:14:29)

Tairaku 太楽 · 2007-02-04 19:16:37

geni wrote:
I would say that...

if you play songs with large flutes -sounds like a man voice .

If you play them with small flutes (higher) -sound like a female voice.

Never thought of that, but yet another good reason to play long flutes! Good and simple observation.

Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

#1 2007-02-03 12:03:34

Traditional Influences

#2 2007-02-03 12:59:35

Re: Traditional Influences

#3 2007-02-04 09:53:00

Re: Traditional Influences

#4 2007-02-04 11:53:42

Re: Traditional Influences

#5 2007-02-04 15:40:20

Re: Traditional Influences

#6 2007-02-04 16:32:29

Re: Traditional Influences

#7 2007-02-04 19:16:37

Re: Traditional Influences

geni wrote:

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