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Hi,
Im having troubles with volume of tsu-meri and tsu-dai-meri in both otsu and kan. I just cant blow them with similar volumes as other tones. Is there any help? Thank you very much for your answer.
With respect,
Marek Matvija, Czech republic
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Hi Marek,
I'm no pro, but generally speaking the tsu-meri and tsu dai meri notes should be quieter than normal notes. Of course I'll let the pros speak, but that's what I was taught.
Chris
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Bogert wrote:
Hi Marek,
I'm no pro, but generally speaking the tsu-meri and tsu dai meri notes should be quieter than normal notes. Of course I'll let the pros speak, but that's what I was taught.
Chris
If anyone can explain what tsu-meri and tsu dai meri is, there's at least one person out here (me) that would learn from it. I know otsu and kan are the two different registers, but I still don't know a lot of the terminology.
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radi0gnome wrote:
If anyone can explain what tsu-meri and tsu dai meri is...
Here's the deal--going successively down in pitch:
Tsu (F on a 1.8)
Tsu chu no meri (down a half step: E on a 1.8) [Played with a slight meri and just shading the top of hole 2--or not]
Tsu no meri (down another half step: Eb on a 1.8) [Tsu no meri means: 'the meri of Tsu'--also generally known as 'Tsu meri'-->more meri and close down most of hole 2.]
Tsu dai meri (down yet another half step: pitch of C--if in Otsu, an octave below Ri--on a 1.8). [Meri the whole thing down a half step.]
[Edit: Tsu dai meri is actually the pitch of Ro, (D on a 1.8)--see below.]
Tsu meri followed by Tsu dai meri is a common element in honkyoku. Furthermore, it's pretty much impossible to play Tsu meri (much less
Tsu dai meri) as loud as Tsu, or any other non-meri note. Nature of the beast. It's one of the important signature sound characteristics of the music played by the shakuhachi. If you have a seven hole shakuhachi, all pitches can be equal in volume, but it ain't the traditional thing any more.
eB
Last edited by edosan (2007-03-07 08:38:43)
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It's a common misconception that a note has to be loud to be powerful, tsu-dai-meri in the hands of a skilled passionate player is just as much a shot to the heart as the loud blast of Ro. Shakuhachi is a beautiful orchestra of highs and lows like the waves of Konnegwa...
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Simple answer to this question is that meri notes are supposed to be quieter than kari notes on the shakuhachi. It's built into the music. Shakuhachi music is based not only on pitch but also tone or timbre and those muffled and somewhat indistinct sounds of meri are desirable.
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Hi all,
Besides what is's been said about tsu meri not being as loud as normal tsu on a normal basis, I've heard that the volume of the tsu meri also depends on the flute, some alowing to play a louder tsu meri (and I guess tsu dai meri) than others.
Anyway, as Michael above mentioned, it can be a very powerful note with the right resonance and projection (certainly hard to get!)
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Some makers very slightly and shallowly "overcut" the 1st hole, toward the root end to enable a louder tsu dai meri, without affecting the tuning of tsu or the chimney volume of the closed hole for ro. In theory. In skilled hands. Which I don't have yet. :-)
Someone can correct me, but I think this is intended to support the Dokyoku goal of slightly stronger meri notes than other schools. ?
-Darren.
Last edited by dstone (2007-03-07 04:32:47)
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edosan wrote:
radi0gnome wrote:
If anyone can explain what tsu-meri and tsu dai meri is...
Here's the deal--going successively down in pitch:
Tsu (F on a 1.8)
Tsu chu no meri (down a half step: E on a 1.8) [Played with a slight meri and just shading the top of hole 2--or not]
Tsu no meri (down another half step: Eb on a 1.8) [Tsu no meri means: 'the meri of Tsu'--also generally known as 'Tsu meri'-->more meri and close down most of hole 2.]
Tsu dai meri (down yet another half step: pitch of C--if in Otsu, an octave below Ri--on a 1.8). [Meri the whole thing down a half step.]
eB
Edosan,
Good description, but I don't follow. Tsu dai meri as described would be pitch equivalent to Ro, which, on a 1.8 would be D. Ro no meri would be pitch equivalent to Ri ottava basso. Unless, of course, I'm mistaken, or misunderstand your otherwise excellent explantation, either of which would not be a rare event.
Bruce
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Hole 1, instead of 2 perhaps!
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dstone wrote:
Some makers very slightly and shallowly "overcut" the 1st hole, toward the root end to enable a louder tsu dai meri, without affecting the tuning of tsu or the chimney volume of the closed hole for ro. In theory. In skilled hands. Which I don't have yet. :-)
Someone can correct me, but I think this is intended to support the Dokyoku goal of slightly stronger meri notes than other schools. ?
-Darren.
It is for making meri notes a little louder. Ive had this done to my flutes 1st and 4th holes. It didnt look very hard; my teacher just used a drill and a bit for grinding, hand held with a bin between his knees. Try it out yourself.
A small thing I would like to add. My teachers have said that even though meri notes are quieter, its important to think of them as being louder than the other notes, perhaps to combat a complacent attitude towards playing good strong meri notes. If you dont have the idea that meri notes can be stronger, you might always just believe its a weaker note, and it will sound weak. This goes for nayashi as well; the dip should be louder and heavier.
Last edited by caffeind (2007-03-07 08:00:26)
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Bruce Hunter wrote:
Edosan,
Good description, but I don't follow. Tsu dai meri as described would be pitch equivalent to Ro, which, on a 1.8 would be D.
Bruce
Oops! Sorry. Must have been gathering wool somewhere off in the ozone when I proofed this statement.
Tsu dai meri is indeed the pitch of Ro, (D on a 1.8). And indeed it is Ro dai meri that is the pitch of Ri (or Hi, depending on octave).
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Serves me right for writing posts after bed time...
eB
Last edited by edosan (2007-03-07 08:34:05)
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Chris Moran wrote:
dstone wrote:
Some makers very slightly and shallowly "overcut" the 1st hole, toward the root end to enable a louder tsu dai meri, without affecting the tuning of tsu or the chimney volume of the closed hole for ro. In theory. In skilled hands.
Pretty straightforward is that it works quite often with just average manual skills. Some call it "reshaping", others call it "notching". It can improve the tsu-meri's quite dramatically. I have one flute that it worked on particularly well. Peter Hill did the work.
Overcutting toward the rootend can be very effective. One thing to keep in mind; overcutting essentially is making the hole bigger. (It sharpens less on that side of the hole, but sometimes overcutting hole #1 can sharpen tsu noticeably) It's best to overcut while tuning. If that is not possible, it's a good idea to keep an ear open for any tuning changes while grinding. Like most things shakuhachi, it's about balance and compromise.
KL
radi0gnome wrote:
If anyone can explain what tsu-meri and tsu dai meri is, there's at least one person out here (me) that would learn from it. I know otsu and kan are the two different registers, but I still don't know a lot of the terminology.
For more on tsu meri, check out the search function of the forum. You may find some helpful information.
Good luck!
KL
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A pic of the notching/reshaping/overcutting being discussed: (tsu hole, root is to the right)
-Darren.
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Yamaguchi Goro, in his workshop on Shika no Tone at the Boulder WSF, said that one has to 'love' meri notes to play them effectively and with the right sound.
There's something to dwell on.
Jeff
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G'day all of the above replies are important.
The tone colour of Tsu meri and Tsu dai meri is also important. A little breathiness will also
help.
It's also important not to 'squeeze' hole 1 too much in an attempt to get the pitch down to Eb of D [ ref 1.8 pitch]
Getting embouchure angle /breath speed is critical. That is very deep meri.
Chin in, relax lower lip into top hole a little, relax, blow gently with moderate focus - think of FU rather blowing out the birthday cake candles. All these help in combination to get pitch down.
To blow and make a good sound - not LOUD sound for Tsu meri/dai is difficult for beginners, especially those who have not played any woodwind instruments before.
Kan tsu meri/dai is more difficult. ;-)
If you get a good tsu dai meri closing hole 1 should get you clos to Ro dai meri [C on a 1.8]
graham in Oz.
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may be it would sound very strange but i would like to share my experience. i shade the holes not from up but from down the shakuhachi. i dont know- my fingers shape or what but shading normaly doesnt work well for me on shakuhachi with smaller than 12mm holes. shading from down works 100% for me and the meri is strong. you can try it, may be it would work for you also.
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costademaria wrote:
may be it would sound very strange but i would like to share my experience. i shade the holes not from up but from down the shakuhachi. i dont know- my fingers shape or what but shading normaly doesnt work well for me on shakuhachi with smaller than 12mm holes. shading from down works 100% for me and the meri is strong. you can try it, may be it would work for you also.
I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that for Japanese traditional music you can do the half holings (I assume that's what you mean by shading) from top, bottom, or side and that there are different notations for each. I find from the top easiest too, I disagree about the tone though, either way the strength of the tone is sacrificed for me. I notice too that just opening a hole very slightly from either direction can almost completely destroy the tone, instead of making it very slightly sharper which is what I'd expect theoretically.
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