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Tube of delight!

#1 2007-04-18 08:05:51

Tairaku 太楽
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226

Hitori Mondo

This is one of the finest written pieces in shakuhachi history, Hisamatsu Fuyo, one of the early Kinko greats. I've played a few of his flutes and they are excellent even by (or more) than modern standards. He must have known what he was doing.

The Hitori Mondo of Hisamatsu Fuyo

Question. For what purpose do you play the shakuhachi?

Answer. Not for any purpose. You play because you like to.

Q. Then it is not a useless instrument?

A. No it is not a useless instrument. Shakuhachi is a Zen instrument. It should not be treated indiscriminately.

Q. In what way is it a Zen instrument?

A. There is no being in the three worlds (past, present and future), that does not have Zen quality. There is no event that does not have Zen quality. Above all, shakuhachi is not just an instrument one sounds to make music. Following the flow of your breath it becomes your Zen practice. If it is not a Zen instrument, then what is it? Since its essence goes beyond intellect, it is difficult for outsiders to understand.

Q. If you say shakuhachi goes beyond intellect, then how can you explain it in words?

A. To go all the way with intellect, and then go beyond intellect: this is the way to the inconceivable. This is not limited to shakuhachi.

Q. Then please explain first what can be explained with words.

A. This is a clever question, but hard to answer. If I don't say anything, you may think that shakuhachi is in a large sense for the world, and in a small sense for yourself.

Q. In what way do you play for yourself, and in what way for the world?

A. If you do not make it your purpose to abandon all greed and desires, even if you blow the bamboo, it is not Zen practice. If you do not devote yourself to training your mind, you will not penetrate the inner mysteries. If you abandon greed and discipline your mind, you naturally become a direct and unblemished person. If even one person becomes direct and unblemished, is that not for the good of the world and for the good of himself?

Q. What kind of person was Fuke Zenji?

A. I do not know. Better ask someone with more knowledge of Zen.

Q. Wasn't Fuke the ancestor of shakuhachi? If one follows this path but doesn't know its origins, is that not a sign of immaturity?

A. As for myself, because I understand the source of shakuhachi, I say I do not know Fuke. Fuke was an enlightened man, but I do not think he sought his enlightenment by playing shakuhachi. He cannot be compared to an ignorant blind person like me who plays shakuhachi because he enjoys it and has gradually come to know that shakuhachi is a Zen instrument. Even if Fuke had played shakuhachi, it would only have been a passing fancy. His practice of shakuhachi would not compare to my training for many years. If Fuke were to come alive again in this generation he would surely become my disciple and ask me to show him the way. If you look at records from the time of Fuke, and if you know all about his life, but you do not know his enlightenment, then you do not know Fuke. On the other hand, a person who knows nothing of his life, but knows his enlightenment, he knows Fuke. I do not know him yet.

Q. Are the twelve tones inherent in shakuhachi?

A. The bamboo has one tone which depends on whether it is long or short, and whether it is thin or thick. It does not have the twelve tones. There are the twelve tones in nature and the twelve tones in humans. If one can capture the twelve tones of nature even for a short while in the tube of the bamboo, the human body can feel them. When the human body feels them, the twelve tones in the body arise naturally. However, depending on a person's character, there are those who are sensitive to the tones, and those who are insensitive. If you try to teach an insensitive person, he will not understand. But one who is sensitive to the tones will experience this phenomenon naturally by himself.

Q. The fixed form of shakuhachi has four holes on its two front surfaces and one hole behind and it has seven nodes. The length is fixed at one shaku eight sun. Is there any reason for each of these points?

A. Shakuhachi is a Zen instrument, so its length is determined to be one foot eight inches, and it is called shakuhachi. Each symbol has arisen from the yin and yang principle of the universe. These symbols cannot be explained in a short time. If you interpret them in your own way, it will not make sense. If you know all those things, it will not make your playing any better; if you don't know them, it will not make your playing worse. A person who wants to know those things should study and learn them. I am not concerned with knowledge. I only know that shakuhachi makes sounds when you blow it.

Q. There are people who count up from the bottom hole one., two, ... and there are people who count down from the top hole one, two ... Which is right and which is wrong?

A. Whichever one you call right is right. Whichever one you call wrong is wrong. Counting is originally created by people; it is not inherently contained in the bamboo. People who think it proper to count down from the top make that right; people who think it proper to count up from the bottom make that right. Since I learned to count one, two from the bottom, I consider that right. When you understand the inner secrets, it becomes clear that the bottom is number one. When you grasp it, it is likely to feel like just waking from a dream. However if you neglect asking questions, you may regret spending fruitless hours and days.

Q. The shakuhachi is made from the bottom of the bamboo, while the hitoyogiri is made from the upper part of the bamboo. What is the difference between the bottom and upper part?

A. The difference between the bottom and the upper part is too obvious to talk about. The human heart is as wide as the universe, however people restrict themselves so they are not free to move. When someone like you asks such questions like a frog in a well I have to laugh. Haven't people said from ancient past that shakuhachi has seven nodes? Yet in recent times many people have called something with six of five nodes shakuhachi. In past and present times, the human heart has not changed. If there are changes, it is only because people have become slack in following the way. With shakuhachi the number of nodes and the length is up to your heart. There is no need to be concerned with the shape of the bamboo or the number of nodes. If you are concerned with form, then you must not break the traditional rules. But if you concentrate on emptiness, then you should not be attached to the old ways.

There is shakuhachi as Zen instrument, and there is shakuhachi for entertainment. The Zen instrument shakuhachi is emptiness. The shakuhachi for entertainment is form. There are many people who amuse themselves with shakuhachi as a pleasure instrument; those who study shakuhachi as a Zen instrument are rare. I follow Zen practice with shakuhachi as a Zen instrument, so I am not concerned with the length or number of nodes.

Q. At what period of time was the number of pieces fixed at 36?

A. Kinko III told me that the basic and applied pieces make 36, to which one adds the three secret pieces. He said they were fixed by Kinko I. Since I have not inquired especially about these matters, I cannot say that I know.

Q. There is a kind of notation for the pieces. In what period was this fixed?

A. I have heard that Kinko II and his disciple Ikkan fixed the notation, but I have no evidence, so I cannot say if it is true?

Q. If you can play each piece without deviating from the notation, are you considered a good player?

A. No. Someone who can play the pieces with no deviation from the notation has a good memory, but that is not enough to make him a good player. Like a guardian of the notation, is it so difficult to learn these thirty-six pieces? Most people could learn one piece in each month. To be a good player does not depend on the number of pieces, but on how you play one piece.

39 pieces lie within 36 pieces.
36 pieces lie within 18 pieces.
18 pieces lie within 3 pieces.
3 pieces lie within one piece.
One piece lies within no piece.
A breath lies within emptiness and nothingness.

So you see the number of pieces doesn't mean anything.

Q. Then is it all right to deviate from the notation?

A. To deviate from the notation is against the rules. The notation was fixed for fear of the shakuhachi tradition falling into confusion. If you play falsely from the time when you are a beginner, or if you play according to your feelings, even if the sound of the bamboo is heard as beautiful, you will not realize the Zen quality of shakuhachi. But if you blow shakuhachi, and if you know the emptiness of shakuhachi, then there is no need to be concerned with notation. The notation was fixed so as to lead beginners to the realization of the emptiness of shakuhachi. So isn't it absurd to deviate from the notation?

Q. Do you play with no deviation from the notation?

A. I do not deviate from the notation, yet there are great differences. For example, you are a person and I am a person. We have the same body, hair, and bowels, and yet there are great differences. Now think for yourself about the distinction between deviating from the notation and having great differences.

Q. Then please tell me, what makes a good player, and what makes a master?

A. A good player is one who makes the bamboo shaft alive. A master naturally and effortlessly brings forth something inconceivable. However, without study it is impossible to enter the boundaries of mastery. You become the bamboo. The bamboo becomes you. A master lives in emptiness while working in form. Then playing each piece becomes Kyorei. Emptiness is taking the name of Kyorei as the essence of each piece. Emptiness is calling oneself Kyomu (emptiness and nothingness). The Zen practice of living in emptiness and working in form applies to the self and the heart. It is hard for inexperienced people to understand.

Q. Are there any masters living now?

A. There are none. I cannot even see a person who understands this practice.

Q. Are you a master, a good player, or a poor player?

A. I am a master, I am a good player, and I am a poor player. I know the boundaries of mastery, but cannot enter. I do my practice in the realm of a good player, but have not reached the highest level. So doesn't that make me a very poor player?

Q. With what contemporary player can you compare yourself?

A. I cannot measure up to anyone. When I compare myself to my heart, I cannot measure up to my heart, and my heart does not measure up to me. Then how can I compare myself to others? When my thoughts, imagination and concentration become one within myself, then I will call myself a good player, even a master. I enjoy each moment by doing my Zen practice in my heart and myself and realizing the way. I just hold the bamboo and blow it.

Already people have stopped asking questions and have closed their mouths. Therefore I call this writing Hitori Mondo (self questioning). What a waste of paper and ink to write this!

The 6th year of Bunsei (1823), late fall

A hermit of Edo, Fuyo Suga no Sadaharu

Translated by Robin Hartshorne and Kazuaki Tanahashi
Excerpted from “The Annuls of the International Shakuhachi Society Volume 1”
See “Volume 1” for additional information.

'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari



#2 2007-04-18 08:45:58

From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Hitori Mondo

Tairaku wrote:

A. As for myself, because I understand the source of shakuhachi, I say I do not know Fuke. Fuke was an enlightened man, but I do not think he sought his enlightenment by playing shakuhachi. He cannot be compared to an ignorant blind person like me who plays shakuhachi because he enjoys it and has gradually come to know that shakuhachi is a Zen instrument.

Among the many interesting thoughts, this one caught my attention the most. It is something I've been thinking about lately. First of all, I'm understand neither shakuhachi or Zen so this amounts to little more than bumping around in a dark room. Regardless, a theme that seems to appear often in Zen teachings is the idea of first getting attached to the very thing you do until you in a sense become one with it and then letting go of that one thing. There are, I believe, several koans and some writings which talk about this. The beginner tries to follow the path as closely as possible until he can do it perfectly. To this point, following the path has been his goal. Once capable of doing so, he has to forget about the path as well.

It is often said that playing shakuhachi is a kind of Zen practice. You play in a certain way that is very formal and strict. By doing this you are - forgive me for over-simplifying - supposed to eventually reach your goal. Reading this interview made me think of something interesting. There is a clear difference made between playing because you enjoy it and playing as a form of Zen practice. I believe most people play because they enjoy it. They like the sound they are making and it makes them feel good, sad and happy among other things.

Another common saying is that when you reach enlightenment through playing, it happens through a single sound. I hope everyone here who knows more of Zen than I do forgives me for suggesting something that may in fact be completely wrong. I know - and I suppose most of you do as well - how impossible it would be to just suddenly decide to reach a state of void. You can't simply decide to do so all of the sudden even if the concept itself doesn't sound hard at all on paper. What I wonder is if activities such as meditation or playing shakuhachi exist to give a person something to focus on until they are so focused to what they are doing that they can almost reach the Zen mind. The only thing holding them back is indeed the very act that got them that far. At that point one has to take the final step and grow past this final obstacle and to realise how it isn't necessary at all.

Yes, I know, this amounts to little more than intellectual solitaire when written out like this. Yet, I found the idea rather interesting when I tried to consider the difference between playing because you enjoy it and playing just because.



#3 2007-04-18 12:58:03

From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552

Re: Hitori Mondo

amokrun wrote:

There is a clear difference made between playing because you enjoy it and playing as a form of Zen practice.

Sure, when reaching for the flute, Zen Guy might claim "discipline, practice!" while Normal Guy might claim "enjoyment!"  But ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if Zen Guy actually experienced more enjoyment in his practice than the one who set out to enjoy. 

Normal Guy senses the enjoyable nature of playing and hearing shakuhachi and, maybe, plays to get his fix of enjoyment.  But across the hall, Zen Guy might have picked up the flute under a more stoic guise but then he will be even more aware and sensitive and receptive to the sound's message, the nuances, the tensions and releases, the playfulness, etc.  The feeling of enjoyment in Zen Guy may even last longer after practice, perhaps even until he next picks up the flute.  Enjoyment isn't verboten in Zen practice, just attachment to or dependency on it is.

So maybe Zen Guys have more fun playing shakuhachi.  They're just not allowed to let that be the motivator.  Tough break.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida



#4 2007-04-18 13:48:56

From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Hitori Mondo

dstone wrote:

So maybe Zen Guys have more fun playing shakuhachi.  They're just not allowed to let that be the motivator.  Tough break.

Agreed. I suppose the problem is what fun often implies. Had I said that Zen student enjoys playing shakuhachi, the first thing someone would visualize is a guy jamming with the band or something similar. Fun often implies things that just don't go with something like that. On the other hand, if you agree that one can have fun by staring a wall if such an act happens to make him happy then it would make sense to say that Zen students have a ton of fun playing shakuhachi. It's the concept that people here call - apologies to everyone - "old guy fun". Things that aren't usually considered to be a form of amusement but which can bring immense satisfaction if done with the right mindset. Not that I know anything about that since I'm way too young to understand such things.



#5 2007-04-18 13:53:15

jeff jones
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 113

Re: Hitori Mondo

I thought I might add a little on the subject of Fuke and history if I could. There is a very good thesis by Takahashi Tone where stories of Fuke are mentioned in the Rinzai Roku. I thought they gave a pretty good idea of the personality of Fuke.

"The most relevant information regarding Fuke is found in Rinzai- Roku and Kyotaki Denki Kokujikai. Rinzao-Roku was compiled in the Northern Sung Dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Hui Zhong. The compiler of the Chinese manuscript, Yen Chao, was a priest who lived in Zheng Chou Bao Shou. Rinzai-Roku is considered by Zen specialists to be the culminating embodiment of Zen literature.
Rinzai, who died in 867 like to test Fuke’s zenki, which can be attested to by the many anecdotes from the narration in Rinzai-Roku. One of the most characteristic examples is the following.

Once Rinzai was eating with Fuke and asked him:
“How do you compare yesterday’s lunch with
today’s?” Fuke, instead of answering, kicked and
overturned the table. Rinzai shouted: “You
scoundrel! Why, instead of receiving what is
Offered to you, you through it away?” Fuke answered
“The precept of Buddha is above good and evil.
Is there in it anything that could be called good or
bad manners?” Rinzai was speechless.

Another anecdote relates how one of Rinzai’s students waited for Fuke to finish his famous
Chanting with the bell accompaniment before asking him:

“What would you do, if no one from any direction?”
Fuke answered: Tomorrow in Dai Hi’in, there is a banquet.”
The student reported the answer to Rinzai who commented:
“I always suspected this is no ordinary man. It is indeed so.”

Despite the continuous provocations, it becomes obvious to the reader of Rinzai-Roku that Rinzai venerated Fuke. Moreover, in the course of the narration, the two entities appear to emerge on the same spiritual level.
The section which contains the dialogues between Rinzai and Fuke in Rinzai-Roku ends with Fuke No Wakare (Farewell to Fuke), were the following is written:

One day Fuke went to town begging for a monk’s robe.
When someone offered to provide them, he would refuse
to accept them. Finally Rinzai told him that he had prepared
for him a monk’s habit and presented him with a coffin. Fuke
shouldered the coffin and started roaming the streets shouting:
“Rinzai gave me these monk’s robes, I will go to the East Gate
and die.” The town’s people fought with each other in order to
arrive first at the East Gate and watch Fuke’s death. But when
there, Fuke said: “I have changed my mind. I will die tomorrow
at the South Gate.” After repeating the same procedure for three
days there was no one left who believed him and followed him to
see him die. He finally left the town alone and came outside of the
North Gate. He entered into the coffin, and asked a passing traveler
to nail it for him. When the news spread into the town, and people
ran to open the coffin, they found it empty. Only the sound of the
taku was heard, lingering in the empty sky."

From Tozan-ryu: an innovation of the shakuhachi tradition from fuke-shu to secularism
By Takahashi Tone, Ph.D. The Florida State University, 1990

Last edited by jeff jones (2007-04-19 00:55:25)

Beauty is ugly at rest



#6 2007-04-18 20:03:07

From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552

Re: Hitori Mondo

amokrun wrote:

Had I said that Zen student enjoys playing shakuhachi, the first thing someone would visualize is a guy jamming with the band or something similar.

Sure, I agree the words "fun" and "enjoy" are loaded and can conjure up different images to different people.  On zafu facing wall or on stage rocking out...  same thing...  the spirit of burning ourselves up completely in an activity until there's nothing left of us.  All stereotypes and images of what Zen "is or is not" need smashing, don't you think?


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida



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