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#1 2007-08-01 22:01:33

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

Hello again,

When you're determining the tuning of a shakuhachi.....should you be able to just lift off each finger and with no other adjustments....be able to play EVERY note in pitch?   Or is that not what is considered a "tuned" flute?

I know that meri and keri can significantly change the pitch but, removing that from the equation, shouldn't it really be that simple? 

just wondering...

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#2 2007-08-02 09:46:24

mrosenlof
Member
From: Louisville Colorado USA
Registered: 2006-03-01
Posts: 82

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

That might be the ideal, but my expectation is "no".  Early on in my (silver) flute lessons, my teacher told me "every woodwind has to be blown into tune".  She didn't have shakuhachi in mind, but I am convinced it is also true for Shakuhachi.

Both flute and shakuhachi teachers have emphasized to me how much I need to listen to what I'm playing, and know how the notes and intervals are supposed to sound.  Only if I do that (and I'm not there yet!) will I be able to really play in tune.

All of that said, I am really surprised how close to in-tune all of the simple fingered notes come out on a well made shakuhachi.  Overall, it's much closer than a silver flute comes -- but there are fewer holes, for what that's worth.


Mike Rosenlof

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#3 2007-08-02 12:22:48

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

mrosenlof wrote:

All of that said, I am really surprised how close to in-tune all of the simple fingered notes come out on a well made shakuhachi.  Overall, it's much closer than a silver flute comes -- but there are fewer holes, for what that's worth.

Really?  That surprises me.  I'm fairly ignorant of silver flutes, and in that ignorance I assumed they were more "precisely" or at least "consistently" made so there would be the opportunity to make a flute that needed less tuning compensation when played.  Guess not.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#4 2007-08-02 12:26:15

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

ok...i'll accept that "every flute needs to be blown into tune" , but,  then how to the "pros" determine if a flute is in tune, if they're going to adjust every note anyway?  Is there a standard set of adjustments?

I know i'm probably trying to oversimplify the process, but I'm just trying to make the best flutes i possibly can. 

Thanks again to everybody for their patience.

Jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#5 2007-08-02 13:48:48

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

You're not oversimplifying the process, merely beating it to death:

1. To test a flute for accurate pitch, you need a pretty well developed and consistent embouchure and a good sense of pitch.

2. The less you have to work to get all the notes in tune, the better the intonation on the flute is.


Nothin' to it, really  smile

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2007-08-02 13:58:29

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

Doesn't that sort of contradict itself?  If your embouchure is "constant" there will be no meri/keri, and if you have to work less on a "better" flute.  Shouldn't you be able to have it "perfectly" in tune?  Seems to make sense to me.

Also....how much "adjustment" is acceptable for a flute?  is it 5 cents?  10?

i know i'm neurotic, sorry

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#7 2007-08-02 15:02:44

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

jaybeemusic wrote:

Doesn't that sort of contradict itself?  If your embouchure is "constant" there will be no meri/keri, and if you have to work less on a "better" flute.  Shouldn't you be able to have it "perfectly" in tune?  Seems to make sense to me.

Also....how much "adjustment" is acceptable for a flute?  is it 5 cents?  10?

i know i'm neurotic, sorry

jacques

I don't think it's neurotic at all. I remember reading somewhere that no more than 2 (or was it 3?) notes on a shakuhachi should need much adjustment. And the question about how much adjustment is acceptable I don't think was addressed in the article, but since 10 cents is only a 10th of a semitone I'd think it's well into the realm of acceptable. This wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music) says that the just noticeable difference for a major third is 6 cents. I understand that the reasoning behind the acceptability of the tuning being somewhat off is because tone quality takes precedent to being perfectly in tune. I hope a pro chimes in here to clear up some of these questions, but intuitively, adjusting only two notes seems reasonable, particularly when all the partially fingered notes are going to require a lot of listening and adjustment for tuning anyway.

As far as silver flute being out of tune with itself, many of the notes it's because there are 12 holes with only 9 fingers to work the keys. That means that some of the notes will be flattened by some inventive, but kludgey, keywork that requires a key to be closed down the tube to work a key further up the tube. That doesn't change the pitch much but isn't perfect. There's not much that can be done about that. However, the number one culprit is the C#, the one with all holes open, and it is significantly sharp on all silver flutes. This thread has got me pondering why the makers don't just move the first hole down a little. It could be because the hole is also used as a vent hole in the 2nd and 3rd octave. And then there's the difference between just intonation as compared to equal temperment. Ie., you're going to have to adjust differently when playing with a violin (just temperment) than with a piano. Trying to think about it mechanically doesn't work all that well. What happens in real life, except for the C# which is so bad it's a very deliberate adjustment, is that you simply adjust to match the pitch you're playing with when you hear that it's a little off. For fast passages you might forget about it all together, but maybe very high level players are always aware and adjusting even in fast passages.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#8 2007-08-02 19:50:48

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

Good points mentioned.

I think that the way you play a particular note changes depending on what notes you played before and after. For example, go from ro no o meri to ro, or tsu meri to ro, and your embouchre is probably different for each ro. Even when playing a simple pentatonic scale, for me at least, unless I really concentrate on keeping the same breath pressure and shape, its going to change subtly, so it will certainly change when you are playing a piece of music with meri notes, added tension, changing octaves, etc, especially in a performance situation.

I dont think its important for a flute to be exactly in tune. You should develop the ability to adjust pitch quickly. If you perform with other people, there will be times when you have to flatten or sharpen the pitch centre to match other instruments or people, especially with fixed pitch instruments. I suspect the balance of the relative gaps between notes changes slightly when you play all notes more meri or more kari. Maybe this is caused by the way the air hits the utaguchi, or the change in your embouchre when you kari or meri, I dont know. Whatever it is, I have to adjust differently when I raise or lower the pitch centre. Also, apart from the fact that you have might have to adjust the notes that form the basic pentatonic scale of a shakuhachi, good intonation demands that you make subtle shifts in different ways at different times for the same notes. I think its better to focus on these things. Playing a straight pentatonic scale doesnt reflect the reality of playing a piece of music.

Last edited by caffeind (2007-08-02 20:03:29)

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#9 2007-08-02 19:58:05

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/best_pitch.html

This page about finding the best pitch centre for a given flute can probably be applied to shakuhachi. I wanted to try this out but in the end I decided the energy was better spent practicing and working on the ability to adjust  smile  I think its very pertinent to this topic.

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#10 2007-08-02 20:00:33

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

Good players are constantly shifting the orientation of their embouchure to the utaguchi without even thinking about it. There is no such thing as holding your head perfectly still, moving your fingers, and judging the pitch of a flute that way. Furthermore a flute which plays in tune for one good player may not play in tune for another good player and vice versa. If the player and the maker have a similar approach there will be concordance and if not there will be dischord.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2007-08-02 22:15:46

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

I think Caffiend's point about context is the most pertinent. When you've lived with a flute for a while, good (or bad, as the case may) intonation is developed for THAT shakuhachi, even if it has one or two faulty pitches. It's in the nature of the shakuhachi to adjust anyway. It's very nice when you get a flute that doesn't require always reaching for those particular 'off' pitches, but it's not absolutely necessary. Some wonderful shakuhachi have intonation 'defects'.

And many of the old ones are actually made with such 'defects', but only according to Western musical requirements...

The energy expended seeking the 'perfect' shakuhachi can easily become a fool's errand; better to put it into becoming
the perfect player.

Last edited by edosan (2007-08-02 22:19:41)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#12 2007-08-03 09:48:17

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

edosan wrote:

The energy expended seeking the 'perfect' shakuhachi can easily become a fool's errand; better to put it into becoming
the perfect player.

Great point -- I've read here on the forum in a number of places where people mentioned that they had trouble playing a flute they thought was a little 'off'... after handing it over to a more experienced player, however, the instruments really sang.

Zakarius


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#13 2007-08-03 10:07:57

mrosenlof
Member
From: Louisville Colorado USA
Registered: 2006-03-01
Posts: 82

Re: Pentatonic Scale and tuning...

dstone wrote:

mrosenlof wrote:

All of that said, I am really surprised how close to in-tune all of the simple fingered notes come out on a well made shakuhachi.  Overall, it's much closer than a silver flute comes -- but there are fewer holes, for what that's worth.

Really?  That surprises me.  I'm fairly ignorant of silver flutes, and in that ignorance I assumed they were more "precisely" or at least "consistently" made so there would be the opportunity to make a flute that needed less tuning compensation when played.  Guess not.

-Darren.

Lots of good points have been made in this thread.

Here's one little experiment you can do to show that no flute of any kind will always be in "automatically" tune.  You'll need a tuner or a good ear...

Blow a good strong note, make it something in the lower octave just to make this whole thing easier.  Blow good and strong.  Note the pitch.  Now as much as possible without changing embouchure or anything else, blow more softly.  Unless you're already compensating without thinking, the pitch will become lower.  That's just a natural tendency of the flute and players need to compensate for that pitch change.  Side blown, end blown, whistles, recorders all show this behavior.

Good players do the tuning well without even thinking about it.  By that definition I am not a good player.

One of the reasons side blown flutes replaced recorders in orchestral music around the end of the 18th century was that the player can't make tuning adjustments with dynamics on the recorder.

Silver flutes, all flutes really, are a compromise between playability, tuning, tone quality, volume, and no doubt other factors.   Musicians in Europe considered the "modern" silver flute design to be the best compromise available in the mid 1800s.  As somebody mentioned, the C# in the middle of the staff is always very sharp on a silver flute.  The C and D on either side of that C# also tend a bit sharp.  The 3rd octave E is also a problem and all sorts of solutions are offered, most commonly a "split E" (I've never figured out exactly what it is even though my flute has one) or a doughnut in one of the holes.  There is the traditional scale which was developed by Theobald Boehm in the 1800's and a few more modern scales that gently tweak hole positions and sizes trying to improve the compromise -- Cooper scale, Bennett Scale, are two names I've heard, there may be others.

The bottom line is, as Riley Lee told me.  You've got to know what pitch you're trying to make, listen to your pitch, and get it right.

-mike


Mike Rosenlof

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