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#26 2007-06-21 04:01:23

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Harazda wrote:

Another way I think of it is city-style vs. country-style.  The slick, polished jiari flute has a citified presence, and I think Watazumi used a term which translates as "vulgar" to describe its sound.  He wanted that sound that was like the sound of nature, perhaps like the silent sound of heavy snow in a remote mountain forest.  The jinashi flute just delivers that kind of feeling better.

Well, I think nature has enough range of sounds and feelings for each type of flute to be closer to nature in their own particular way. I guess it all goes with taste.

Us for the uncomplicated quality, I find you can reproduce really simple sounds with Jiari. Again it's a matter of subjectivity and taste.

Gishin, I'm sorry, but I think you are way out of line by saying it's a useless question. I thought this forum was about asking questions after all, useless or not useless depends on what a person can make out of it. I know it's a bit like discussing which colour is better blue or red, but that was exactly my point. I just wanted to question the importance on the type of flute (jiari vs jianshi, long vs short) that some people seem to place (maybe as I said my missunderstanding) when refering to Zen practice.

Damon, great story! Yes, the kind of discussion about what is Zen is defenetly a bit like that. But being rational persons trying to reach a non-rationally based understanding I guess we just have to live with that kind of discussions for a while! But I couldn't agree with you more that the whole point is the practice and findind your own way.


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

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#27 2007-06-21 04:10:55

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

dstone wrote:

Gishin wrote:

But you would have to aggree that a Jiari is more easy to play than a Jinashi in General.

Gishin, maybe I'm an exception but I don't agree.  I would expect this to depend on one's experience, what type of flute a player was "raised" on, and what aspects of playing are most desired.  My experience, playing exclusively wide-bore jinashi for my first two years, is that jinashi flutes are easier to play, even compared to a very good jiari flute as I've been practicing with lately.

Maybe eventually jiari's ease will reveal itself to me.  I do enjoy playing jiari.  But for now, everything from stable embouchure, sustaining very long tones, expression/dynamics within a tone's duration, starting cleanly, golden decay, etc. is easier for me on jinashi.

-Darren.

For you and maybe others but main point is that Jiari ARE more easy to play than Jinashi this is why they somehow became the standard overtime. That is unless you have a good Jinashi in your hands and initial talent to play. Anyhow main point in this story is that flutes are what the player makes out of it.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#28 2007-06-21 04:33:01

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

As far as I am concerned Jinashi flutes in general are pieces of crap. The whole reason why Jiari came up was to make better flutes.

If you think about some Japanese traditional arts, lets say kyudo, it is apparent that they aren't using the best possible bows that man has made. Certainly there are better bows out there and using one of those in kyudo would most likely improve your accuracy. Someone who has used a really good modern bow would laugh at trying to shoot with one of the traditional kyudo bows. Yet, they are still around and there are quite a few people who practice the traditional way of kyudo.

I feel that the modern society could use a lesson in the idea that it may be the user and not the tool that is bad. I'll use the computer example since that is closer to my field. Every day people buy computers that are very powerful and capable of doing quite a lot. Yet, these people more often than not have no idea of how to use one. After a while the computer just stops working correctly or slows down because of the constant abuse from the user who doesn't know better. At this point the user walks into a store to buy some new parts because "the computer is slow again". This cycle repeats because the user will never even consider the possibility that the problem is caused by incorrect usage rather than lack of new shiny parts. As a society we encourage this sort of behavior.

Having seen too much of this especially on the field of computers I'm drawn to the idea that one should aim to improve by improving himself rather than focusing too much time on improving the tool. Certainly there are flutes which aren't even functional and cannot be played. Yet, I think that every flute has something to offer if one puts in enough time to learn to play it. Since we don't have the luxury of infinite time to learn anything and everything I prefer to focus on flutes that feel interesting to play. The flute doesn't necessarily need to be a piece of art. As long as I can feel something from playing it I'm happy to learn the tricks to get it to play well. In my case the most interesting instruments I've encountered have been jinashi. I suppose it could have been the other way around as well.

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#29 2007-06-21 04:38:49

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

For you and maybe others but main point is that Jiari ARE more easy to play than Jinashi this is why they somehow became the standard overtime.

It could be that they are easier to play. On the other hand, I think that the main reason why Jiari flutes are more common nowdays is because it's easier to make them. You can make one out of less desirable piece of bamboo even if the bore isn't that great because you can always fix it later. You can make a two-piece flute if you can't get a piece of bamboo that works on its own. Reasons like that mean that it's easier and thus cheaper to make a decent Jiari than it is to make a decent Jinashi. It would seem logical that cheaper instruments are more common except in the hands of the people who'd pay anything for a good instrument regardless.

Gishin wrote:

Anyhow main point in this story is that flutes are what the player makes out of it.

Very much agreed.

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#30 2007-06-21 04:45:36

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Yes the point you are making is quite true in many ways. Except that when you detailed your first bit on Kyudo I feel that field you are talking about is quite different than what as being asked here so far as to Jiari VS Jinashi for Zen practice. The Kyudo bow used in a traditional/Spiritual devellopment context versus a modern Bow for olympic shooting or Hunting cannot be compared directly. Anyway as far as Kyudo goes now so many students are using graphite bows now since those one are less prone to crack bend break etc.. . You will then get the same type of run around arguments from the Kyudo people as what is being raised here right now.

OK gotta go take a shower and put my monkey suit on gotta goe do a funeral today.

Hope that we can all understand that the whole initial question altough I have worded it as useless iritating the original poster and to this I am sorry basically pointed out that there is no clear and definit answer to it and I feel there never was or will be.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#31 2007-06-21 04:49:18

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Very well said . I would tend to say this really near the bullseye as far as to why they are the main product out there.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#32 2007-06-21 04:59:50

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

Hope that we can all understand that the whole initial question altough I have worded it as useless iritating the original poster and to this I am sorry basically pointed out that there is no clear and definit answer to it and I feel there never was or will be.

That is certainly true. I don't think the original poster was even looking for a conclusion for the discussion. I feel that we've managed to cover the topic quite well so far and we've had all sorts of opinions presented. At the very least this conversation made me revisit my reasons for playing shakuhachi.

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#33 2007-06-21 05:52:51

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

amokrun wrote:

I don't think the original poster was even looking for a conclusion for the discussion.

Gishin wrote:

Hope that we can all understand that the whole initial question altough I have worded it as useless iritating the original poster and to this I am sorry basically pointed out that there is no clear and definit answer to it and I feel there never was or will be.

Exactly, never looked for a conclusion, just asking for the sake of a healthy debate! But I guess if there is a conclusion to this topic it is as Gishin points out that there cannot be any conclusion.

amokrun wrote:

I feel that we've managed to cover the topic quite well so far and we've had all sorts of opinions presented. At the very least this conversation made me revisit my reasons for playing shakuhachi.

I'm glad you feel that way as it was one of my reasons to ask the question in the first place.

Salud!


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

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#34 2007-06-21 07:19:27

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

Quite Interesting it was never explained or presented to me this way other than Jiari were made to play better and more in tone also making it perfect to play Sankyoku since now more people were playing Shakuhachi during Meiji. So Meiji restoration was in 1868/1877 until all was finalized so this would mean there was no Jiari or concept of it before that? I would  not go as far as to say that i was exactly because the Komuso were disbanded that they went at it to make better flutes to play with the Shamisen and Koto gals. I am sure it has some involvment to some extant but as I see it the Jiari thing would just be the Japanese being Japanese just like in sword making always trying to improve their products since after Meiji Shakuhachi would be a musical instrument like any other made by craftsmen who had names/shops to keep and a product quality to improve inorder to say their products are the best meaning easy to play in tone etc... But you would have to aggree that a Jiari is more easy to play than a Jinashi in General.

Now for the length thing I am not sure I quite get it. Are you saying that prior to Jiari flutes were longer? Just wanted to make sure on that one since it could also very well be that in general they were at 1.8 but 1.9 could have been quite common as well in the old flutes.

I do not agree that jiari is easier to play than jinashi. I think most people feel that way but that is for a few reasons. The main reason is most people start playing jiari and get used to that. Then when they play jinashi naturally it's different so they have trouble adapting. The people I know who started with jinashi find jiari more difficult, it's a matter of familiarity.

The other thing is a lot of the jinashi flutes around are crap. It's easier to make a crap jinashi than a crap jiari simply because to make crap jinashi all you have to do is poke some holes in a piece of bamboo. Look at Ebay to see that. Sometimes I think people have just not played good jinashi flutes and make generalizations. To make a proper jiari flute, even if it's not good, requires a lot more technique and skill.

I don't like flutes that are too easy to play because I get bored with them after a little while. However I do have a lot of jinashi which are equally responsive and accurate as my jiari flutes.

The question about length. Prior to 1890 or so you don't see many (if any) two piece flutes. I haven't seen any. That means that if you wanted to make a 1.8 (which has always been the standard length) you had to find a piece of bamboo that was 1.8 in length and which had the correct node placement. Once you are willing to cut out some bamboo you can take a piece of longer bamboo and cut out the amount that gives you a 1.8. Furthermore you can cut out the part that gives you the wrong node placement. These things allow you to make 1.8's out of a lot more bamboo than you could before when you had to find a piece that was actually 1.8 in length. In a sense you could even say that most 2 piece flutes involve a compromise, at least in terms of the integrity of the piece of bamboo.

Length is not the only factor in tuning or pitch of a flute. So is bore profile and the size of the internal space. If making jinashi flutes let's say there are two pieces of bamboo, both 1.8 in length. One is normal size and one has a large bore. The normal one yields a flute which is pitched on D and the wide bore one is pitched flat of that on C#.

OK so you decide to make the second piece of wood a jiari, stick it full of ji and urushi, shape the bore properly and now they both play on D. Jiari flutemaking is a technique which allows the maker to fill the bore with the right amount of foreign material to create the same bore profile with every piece of wood. Sometimes you have to add a lot, sometimes the bore is already about right and you just add dabs here and there. Ji is also great for tuning problem areas in the bore. Old 1.8's varied considerably in pitch. I have 1.8's that range from sharp D all the way down to C. If you are willing to introduce non-bamboo materials (whether ji, epoxy or whatever) you can make them all play on D.

(As a sidebar, on the other hand if you don't fill them up you have a bigger bore to width ratio, which creates more of a foghorn tone, and that is what we based the Taimu concept upon. Many of the older jinashi flutes had a wider bore profile and that tone. This was lost when they streamlined the bore and standardized it.)

Regarding the origin of ji, I have been told that it was Araki Chikuo (AKA Araki Kodo II) http://www.komuso.com/people/Araki_Kodo_II.html who started seriously putting ji in flutes. He is still considered the greatest Kinko maker and his shakuhachi fetch the highest prices on the collector's market. I have played many and they are wonders. Chikuo and the next generation of makers (including Miura Kindo, Inoue Shigemi, Notomi Judo, Yamaguchi Shiro and more less famous names) perfected jiari shakuhachi making and have never been surpassed.

So Gishin to answer your question, jiari making was developed in the Meiji period. They did it both for practical flutemaking reasons and also for musical reasons. These discoveries undoubtably were cause and effect and went hand in hand. In fact many of the ornaments which characterize the Kinko playing of today must have been developed at this time because it's not possible to play them on the really old Kinko flutes.

OK to go further. This created a schism of sorts philosophically among shakuhachi players. Now there were two kinds of players. Those who were willing to play jiari flutes and those who were not. Those who were not were the Myoan players who wanted to play only Koten honkyoku. They became the musical and bamboo fundamentalists and preserved old ways of playing. They stood to the side while the Tozan and Kinko schools grew and changed. They also generally didn't perform in public therefore did not need loud flutes which projected a lot of volume into a concert hall.

Kinko and Tozan players started playing mainly jiari flutes because they were playing ensemble music in public. The new jiari flutes were well suited to this purpose. Tozan is by far the biggest school of shakuhachi playing in the world. They don't play Koten honkyoku. They play music and like to use jiari shakuhachi. Kinko is the next largest school and the oldest. They also play jiari although they will also make and play jinashi. Prior to late 1800's they made only jinashi. When the Kinko school started to emphasise sankyoku they shifted primarily to jiari.

Then there were people like Jin Nyodo, who was an anomaly. He was originally a Nezasaha (Kimpu ryu) player from Aomori. Then he came down to Tokyo and studied Kinko with Miura Kindo and learned the Kinko honkyoku and sankyoku. After that he traveled around the temples and gathered Koten honkyoku. Eventually he formed a repertoire which encompassed all three of these concepts. So Jin Nyodo had a foot in both camps and played both jiari and jinashi shakuhachi depending upon the music.

I personally love jinashi flutes and that's mainly what I play. However I appreciate the artistry of the great jiari makers of the past. In the present it is my opinion and my opinion only that there are no jiari makers on par with Araki Chikuo, Miura Kindo et. al. Anyway I haven't found any modern jiari flutes with that character or I'd be playing them. But there are jinashi makers who are brilliant including some people right here on the forum. They are making jinashi flutes which compare in many ways to the great Edo and Meiji jinashi. The bamboo is different today that is a simple fact. If you look at the actual bamboo of vintage and modern flutes there are big differences.  Nobody can make flutes exactly the same as the old ones for that reason. However current makers are making really interesting jinashi flutes. I am excited about this direction and I think it's interesting that most of the fresh thought in shakuhachi making is coming from something that on the surface appears to be atavistic.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#35 2007-06-21 09:18:32

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

The bamboo is different today that is a simple fact. If you look at the actual bamboo of vintage and modern flutes there are big differences.  Nobody can make flutes exactly the same as the old ones for that reason.

Brian,
I have never seen or played an old flute, but is this difference due to the age of the bamboo, or is it simply that it grows differently today? I can see that as a bamboo flute ages and has been played for many years, it would take on certain qualities that a new flute couldn't.
I am curious as to what kind of differences there are in the bamboo of old and new.

I am glad that Alex asked this utterly useless question. smile For something so futile, it has generated an aweful lot of talk and some wonderful information. Thank you Alex.

Salud
Damon

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#36 2007-06-21 09:28:21

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

nomaD43 wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

The bamboo is different today that is a simple fact. If you look at the actual bamboo of vintage and modern flutes there are big differences.  Nobody can make flutes exactly the same as the old ones for that reason.

Brian,
I have never seen or played an old flute, but is this difference due to the age of the bamboo, or is it simply that it grows differently today? I can see that as a bamboo flute ages and has been played for many years, it would take on certain qualities that a new flute couldn't.
I am curious as to what kind of differences there are in the bamboo of old and new.

Both. Bamboo ages in general through gradual drying and also ages as you play it because it's vibrating. That process takes decades. Nevertheless you can tell a small percentage of difference in the sound of a vintage flute that has been played a lot and one that has been sitting around unplayed. Maybe 5%. Mellower.

But the main thing is that bamboo is a plant and growing conditions, climate, etc affect everything. Different regions, mountains etc. produce different bamboo. Also bamboo is a crop which dies off periodically and when the new one comes it is different.

Another interesting point is that in the past there was a lot more bamboo available because Japan was less developed. Now it's getting difficult to find and most makers hire professionals to pick for them.

As far as the qualities, a lot of the older bamboo is denser than what you see today.

Oh yeah, you saw and heard a relatively old flute when you had your lesson with me. It was a Yamaguchi Shiro maybe about 70 years old.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#37 2007-08-01 02:50:43

Furiousgeorge
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 11

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

ah, but Ken, the game, like the shakuhachi, must be played from both ends to be fully appreciated.

what of the NL pitcher, who gets to face one useless batter every 3 innings for a gauranteed out?


All Presence is born of Absence

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#38 2007-08-29 09:45:53

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

amokrun wrote:

Ignoring the way the shakuhachi was made for a moment, my preference for a meditation shakuhachi would be one that is so dreadfully hard to play that you need to maintain focus at all times. You know that you've lost your concentration as soon as the sound breaks even for a moment. It would be like a teacher who taps you with a stick as soon as it looks like you are falling asleep. Only this time the feedback is more direct.

My teacher was a student of Yamaguchi Goro and thus spent a considerable amount of time with him. He told me that Yamaguchi-sensei used to play an instrument that was very difficult to play. It had all sorts of problems that you had to take into account to play it well. Yet, if you listen to his recordings you will notice that there is hardly any evidence of this in his playing. This sort of playing on a difficult instrument no doubt requires extreme concentration. It has to come naturally before one can truly get the full potential out of such an instrument.

As for the usage of ji, personally I would go for the type of sound that one feels comfortable with. I find it hard to believe that someone could play well on an instrument that makes a sound that they don't like. I prefer jinashi but I don't think that gets me closer to anything really.

Hi Amokrun
I have been making both jinashi and jiari. If the bamboo doesn't play so well without ji, I put ji in certain places where it will gradually improve each note and the overall balance and sound. However, if you would like you can order from me a special Zen shakuhachi. I shall find each point which will make each note worse and more unstable, and aim to counteract the overall balance. Then you shall have a Zen instrument far superior to any ji-nashi.
Best wishes
Justin

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#39 2007-08-29 15:20:08

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

To some people it's about Zen; to some it is not. 
To some people it's about entertainment; to some it is not. 
To some people it's about prettiness; to some it is not.

What's it about for you?  There's a flute out there that will supply whatever it is.

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#40 2007-08-29 19:08:27

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Justin wrote:

I have been making both jinashi and jiari. If the bamboo doesn't play so well without ji, I put ji in certain places where it will gradually improve each note and the overall balance and sound. However, if you would like you can order from me a special Zen shakuhachi. I shall find each point which will make each note worse and more unstable, and aim to counteract the overall balance. Then you shall have a Zen instrument far superior to any ji-nashi.
Best wishes
Justin

Junstin, are you being cynical here?

kiku


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#41 2007-08-30 13:28:31

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

I just got back from a jinashi mini-workshop with Ken LaCosse of Mujistsu Shakuhachi.  Three and one-half very intensive hours of bare-bones flute making.

Lots of things taught and a surprising amount learned, thanks to the teacher.

Perhaps the most important thing imparted in a workshop like this is a sense of profound respect for the ji-nashi shakuhachi making process -- a myriad of sublties and nuances that go into the creation of a fine zen instrument.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#42 2007-08-30 15:24:14

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Chris Moran wrote:

Lots of things taught and a surprising amount learned, thanks to the teacher.
.

I've learned a lot about making jinashi flutes from Ken. The main thing I learned is that I'd rather have Ken make the flute than make it myself! wink He makes it look so simple but when you see how many variables he takes into account it's bewildering how he can do it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#43 2007-08-30 21:41:01

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Chris Moran wrote:

I just got back from a jinashi mini-workshop with Ken LaCosse of Mujistsu Shakuhachi.  Three and one-half very intensive hours of bare-bones flute making.

Lots of things taught and a surprising amount learned, thanks to the teacher.

Perhaps the most important thing imparted in a workshop like this is a sense of profound respect for the ji-nashi shakuhachi making process -- a myriad of sublties and nuances that go into the creation of a fine zen instrument.

Making a really master ji-nashi is VERY difficult. I have probably made my own flutes (slowly as I was only intending to make them for myself) during 10 years. I have given up as I don't think I can be a good maker and player at the same time (some can - just not me)... and shakuhachi researcher on top of that!
I am glad these workshops both helps people to get started on making their own flutes, and to make people realise that the ji-nashi shakuhachi making is an extremely difficult art. Making your own flutes is a wonderful experience!

If you have tried once to blow into a master piece ji-nashi shakuhachi (or probably any shakuhachi), you would know how rare they are... and how wonderful an art piece these are!

I see the difference between making ji-nashi and ji-nuri flutes a bit like the difference between painting with water colour and oil painting. With water colour, you can't correct. You will have to make a new painting if you have made one stroke too much. With oil painting you can go back as many times as you want and correct, change etc. Never-the-less, it is not any easier to make an oil painting master piece than to make a water
colour master piece!

Blow for peace,
Kiku


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#44 2007-08-31 22:02:14

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

kikuday wrote:

Justin wrote:

I have been making both jinashi and jiari. If the bamboo doesn't play so well without ji, I put ji in certain places where it will gradually improve each note and the overall balance and sound. However, if you would like you can order from me a special Zen shakuhachi. I shall find each point which will make each note worse and more unstable, and aim to counteract the overall balance. Then you shall have a Zen instrument far superior to any ji-nashi.
Best wishes
Justin

Junstin, are you being cynical here?

kiku

Hi Kiku
Hmm, I guess so - sorry! I think I spent too much time with English people recently down at Bisei!
But actually I was kind of making a series of points. Since you asked, perhaps I'll elaborate.

Firstly, I think someone who would be regarded by most as a good shakuhachi maker, whether that be a modern jiari maker or a jinashi maker from the Edo period, wants to make shakuhachi which are easy to play. Of course, that is not the only consideration. But it is an important one. In that respect jinashi making and jiari making are not very different, the difference really being in that the jiari maker has more ways to achieve that aim as he can add and subtract all along the bore. It is also not surprising then that many of the Edo period jinashi makers used a little ji, I guess when they couldn't achieve there aims without adding a little material here and there, as we can see in many Edo jinashi. (By the way Kiku do you know when they started doing that, from the x-rays? I would love to know).

So the purpose is never to make a shakuhachi which is difficult. However, if you think that is more Zen, then, it is possible to make the shakuhachi more difficult to play. My point here was that simply adding ji does not increase the volume or balance or anything. Usually it will DECREASE the volume, and make the sound MORE unstable. It would be the same as removing bamboo at random places. Only when the master-craftsman adds the exact correct amount of ji to the exact right place does it have a positive effect. But, like I said, if you want to pay me to do the opposite, I will do my best!

Then, actually there is an interesting point about difficult shakuhachi. You mentioned Goro-sensei. Why did he play a difficult shakuhachi? Do we suppose it was BECAUSE it was difficult? Somehow I would be suspicious of such a conclusion, although not altogether impossible. However, I would suggest that Goro-sensei liked the tone of that shakuhachi. Now, sometimes when crafting the tone of a shakuhachi, other things go different. Sometimes pitch goes funny, or balance, or stability of some notes. These generally are called defects. However, if this shakuhachi makes the tone you really want, perhaps you will bare the "faults" and push yourself to overcome the difficulties, taking great care to play (as you say needing much concentration) and in the end creating a wonderful tone.

These days it can be a little hard to make shakuhachi like that. Can you imagine a student comes to a shakuhachi maker, and tries a shakuhachi. It is out of tune, and several notes are wobbly.  The maker then tells him "Oh don't worry. It is a wonderful instrument, and after you play it for 2 or 3 years it will sound great!" This could be true. It could sound so amazing. But you get the point I guess.

So I think a great sounding shakuhachi needn't be necessarily difficult to play, although a difficult to play shakuhachi is not necessarily "bad", and indeed might even sound better.

As for Zen, I think you'd best find an authentic master. He/she needn't be "Zen" either. Sufi, Christian, whatever. Doesn't matter I think, so long as they are there.
(By the way for you folks in the States, if you are really wanting someone from Zen then you might check out this guy:
http://www.adyashanti.org/ )

Best wishes
Justin

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#45 2007-09-01 08:44:16

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Justin,

Very frequently an instrument that is more difficult to play sounds better. This is universal among all instruments. For example a bass with high action sounds better than one with low. A sax with a stiff reed sounds better than one with a light reed. A guitar with heavy strings sounds better than one with light. And shakuhachi that take some wrestling with sound better than the ones which are "easy" to play.

If you're looking for the best tone sometimes you have to put some work into it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#46 2007-09-01 10:28:51

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

Justin,

Very frequently an instrument that is more difficult to play sounds better. This is universal among all instruments. For example a bass with high action sounds better than one with low. A sax with a stiff reed sounds better than one with a light reed. A guitar with heavy strings sounds better than one with light. And shakuhachi that take some wrestling with sound better than the ones which are "easy" to play.

If you're looking for the best tone sometimes you have to put some work into it.

Hi Brian
Yes I agree. Though of course it is also possible to have a difficult instrument which is bad! Although difficulty does not cause the instrument to be good, sometimes it might go that ease causes it to become worse! I think the peak of challenge for shakuhachi making is to maximize both of these (whatever balance "maximize" might mean), ease and sound. I suppose it is the same with all instruments ... ?

Justin

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#47 2007-09-01 13:52:03

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Hi All, Happy Labor day!
Just want to jump in quickly between the BBQing.
I think when pros talk about a good shakuhachi being  difficult, they mean a flute that needs to be played with a high degree of skill to get a fantastic sound. I believe they do not mean a flute that needs a lot of adjusting in order to sound OK. I believe they are referring to the techniques used in traditional playing and how much they have to be exercised or pushed to get a special sound.  The simplest example I can use is the "honk" of the Ro. A inexperienced player will not be able to make a Ro honk. To be able to do that, a player needs to have the lip muscles. I often demonstrate how to do this to beginners and then when they try it, they say, "Man, that's difficult!". The fact is some flutes are not able to honk but most modern flutes can...to a certain degree. How well the player can honk will allow her/him to judge how well the flute honks. Most well-made Jiari flutes have a decent honk while a few can blast the door open with powerful ringing overtones. In order to do that, the player has to have the technique. But that would be "difficult" for most players, even very experienced ones.

Listen to a scale ending with a Honking RO.

Again, I am only using the Ro "honk" as a simple example. There are other techniques from other Ryu that are just as or more difficult to execute to get the "right" sound.  In the book, The Violin Maker, the highly acclaimed Eugene Drucker talks about how difficult his Stradivarius violin is. We can conclude that it is because of his virtuosity that he is able to fully access his instrument's unique sound, as opposed to it being a barely functional fiddle that needs "adjustment" in order to play decently.

Who's up for a burger?!
Namaste, Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2007-09-01 14:11:51)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#48 2007-09-01 17:47:27

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Yungflutes wrote:

How well the player can honk will allow her/him to judge how well the flute honks.Who's up for a burger?!
Namaste, Perry

Hey Perry I am up for a burger if you made it! Can you fax it here to Australia?

This statement reminds me of a time a couple of guys came over to try out flutes and the ONLY thing both of them did was blow honking ro for about an hour. On flutes of different pitches. I thought I was trapped in a room with a couple of insane geese!!!!!!!!

It was a good experience because I quickly got over honking ro. Like when you eat too many hot dogs. You quit. Then I switched allegiance to "Foghorn Ro", which is even more difficult to obtain.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#49 2007-09-04 21:13:00

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Gishin wrote:

Quite Interesting it was never explained or presented to me this way other than Jiari were made to play better and more in tone also making it perfect to play Sankyoku since now more people were playing Shakuhachi during Meiji. So Meiji restoration was in 1868/1877 until all was finalized so this would mean there was no Jiari or concept of it before that?

In the Edo period people were using ji. So that means before that. But those shakuhachi are what are referred to in Japan as jinashi. The "jiari" shakuhachi are shakuhachi having a bore with ji throughout. That is the common style now. So jiari basically means the style of the bore being totally covered with ji all along. I don't know when the first ones were made - perhaps one of the shakuhachi historians can chip in. In contrast to that, there are the shakuhachi which do not have that totally ji-covered bore, and so are refered to as jinashi. But many of them (Edo period jinashi) still have some ji (though you can see most of the bamboo bore, nodes etc) and also some were 2 piece with a central joint or even 3 joints sometimes.

Best wishes
Justin



[Edit] sorry, I thought I was replying to a new post! It was from page one but I didn't notice page 2! Oh well, hope it is interesting for someone.

Last edited by Justin (2007-09-04 22:55:34)

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#50 2007-09-07 15:43:15

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Jinashi vs. Jiari

Tairaku wrote:

... Then I switched allegiance to "Foghorn Ro", which is even more difficult to obtain.

Would you give us an example of "Foghorn Ro"?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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