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#1 2006-02-08 11:45:46

Owloon
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From: Experimental Farm, Ottawa
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 19
Website

Width

I'm trying to figure out how to make a 2.1 or a 2.4 from wood.  How much wider are the bores of such creatures compared to a 1.8?  Is the narrowed part of the bore in the same place, proportionately, or just the same distance from the end?  Is there any difference in the basic interior shape?

Many thanks!


"Whether you are [playing] in the bar, the church, the strip joint, or the Himalayas, the first duty of music is to compliment and enhance life."   -- Carlos Santana, via _Zen Guitar_ by Philip Toshio Sudo

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#2 2006-02-08 13:01:07

kyoreiflutes
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From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
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Re: Width

Well, no 1.8s are the same, so, no 2.4s are the same. Every piece of bamboo has a different place where the walls thicken and tighten, so you just have to figure out an average. I'd say that a 2.4 could have a longer "bell" than a 1.8, but I could be wrong; again, it would depend, I think, on the piece.

So, since you have flexibility, just make it wherever you want. You can kind of average it out. I'm sure someone else will have something better to say.

Bore width doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the length of the flute; my 1.8 has a slightly bigger bore than my 2.1. It's also just slightly thinner than my 1.8 Yuu, and the exact same length, but pitched exactly the same. I've seen wider bore big flutes, and smaller bore: I think it's all a matter of taste when it comes to making your own out of wood. Some people like the bigger bores, some don't. I like them bigger, but not TOO big.

If you can, why don't you play around and see what you like, and what's easiest for ya?

Good luck!

-Eddie


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#3 2006-02-08 13:04:00

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Width

October Alley wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how to make a 2.1 or a 2.4 from wood.  How much wider are the bores of such creatures compared to a 1.8?  Is the narrowed part of the bore in the same place, proportionately, or just the same distance from the end?  Is there any difference in the basic interior shape?

Many thanks!

There are two schools of thought on this issue. Some makers think everything about a flute should remain the same exept length and distance between holes when making different length flutes.

Others take advantage of the opportunity to widen the mouthpiece and bore to get a different tone and response.

There are great advantages to a wide bore and a large mouthpiece. That's the camp I'm in.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#4 2006-02-08 17:19:37

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Width

Yeah, and you also have to watch out for making the mouthpiece TOO wide, so that your chin can't cover it properly. With a bamboo flute, you have the option of leaving a little bit of the node in at the mouth piece, so that it acts as a breath return. Otherwise, you don't get quite the sound you want. So, take that into consideration.

And yes, Brian and Ken are probably about the two biggest propnents of wider flutes around here...I love them, but haven't had the opportunity to play many, except a crappy one I made awhile back. I plan on either making one, or getting one of Ken's in the near future...there's just no sound like it.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#5 2006-02-08 20:40:43

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Width

October Alley wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how to make a 2.1 or a 2.4 from wood.  How much wider are the bores of such creatures compared to a 1.8?  Is the narrowed part of the bore in the same place, proportionately, or just the same distance from the end?  Is there any difference in the basic interior shape?

Many thanks!

I like to think of shakuhachi as having a window of bore width possibilities for each length. Some makers refer to this as "aspect ratio" or "bore/length ratio."

Generally, thinner bore flutes play with a more focused, pure tone. Wider bore flutes play with a more breathy, ephemeral tone. If the bore is too thin, the lower octave becomes more difficult to play and looses tone quality. The octave tuning also suffers. If the bore is too wide, the upper octaves become more difficult to play and loose tone quality. The octave tuning suffers as well.

In my experience, bores increase in size as the length increases. The bore width window is wide enough, however, so some longer flutes can actually have smaller bores than some shorter flutes and still play well. (Does this make sense?)

I think the limits of the bore width window depend on a combination of physics and the makers adjustments. It's best to experiment. You'll know when you've gone too far.

Here are some common bore measurements for a few different size jiari shakuhachi. They can be tweaked thinner or wider.

1.8 = 54.5cm
Top bore dia. = 2.0cm
Choke point at 46cm = 1.54cm
End of bore = 1.8cm

2.1 = 65.1cm
Top bore dia. = 2.1cm
Choke point at 56cm = 1.62cm
End of bore = 1.95cm

2.4 = 74.5cm
Top bore dia. = 2.22
Choke point at 63cm = 1.68cm
End of bore = 2.05cm

As always, there are many ways to approach this. Hope this helps.

Ken

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#6 2006-02-08 22:09:58

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Width

Mujitsu wrote:

... some longer flutes can actually have smaller bores than some shorter flutes and still play well. (Does this make sense?) ...

The same principles seem to apply to the design of Kena and Kenacho.  These are Andean end-blown flutes similar to the Shakuhachi.

I have a Kenacho (the lower instrument, in D, similar to a 1.8 shakuhachi, but with a major scale tuning) and a Kena (same thing, but shorter, in G) by the same maker.  The Kena has very thick walls, and is actually wider than the Kenacho.  This isn't usually the case - Kenacho are usually larger-bored, like a shakuhachi, and the fingering is usually devilishly hard.  My narrow Kenacho is easily fingered and is a fairly quiet, sweet instrument.  The smaller bore seems to result in tone holes that are closer together.  By contrast, my Kena is a very loud, aggressive instrument - it is hard to play the second octave without starting every dog in the neighbourhood barking!

Anyway, this supports the idea that you can make different length flutes with some variety in the bore size.  It also suggests that (a) you have to modify the hole size and placement to reflect both the length and bore, and (b) there are some tonal qualities that reflect the particular combination of length and bore chosen by the maker.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#7 2006-02-09 15:23:10

Owloon
Member
From: Experimental Farm, Ottawa
Registered: 2006-02-08
Posts: 19
Website

Re: Width

Wow, thanks so much, all of you!  I'll let you know how this turns out.


"Whether you are [playing] in the bar, the church, the strip joint, or the Himalayas, the first duty of music is to compliment and enhance life."   -- Carlos Santana, via _Zen Guitar_ by Philip Toshio Sudo

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